What do you think about this airline vs 5G brouhaha?

nanog08 at mulligan.org nanog08 at mulligan.org
Wed Jan 19 21:57:04 UTC 2022

Scott - a side note to clarify things...

The 737 Max8 problem was NOT due to lack of testing or non-incremental 
changes.  The system was well tested and put through it's paces.  It was 
a lack of proper pilot training in the aircraft and its systems and some 
carriers choosing to NOT purchase specific flight control options.

Full disclosure - my classmate was the Chief Test Pilot for the MAX8 and 
another classmate is the current FAA Administrator.

But I digress - sorry...

If you look at 5G deployments around Japan and Europe, generally they 
are NOT right up next to major airports.

I would like to ask ATT and Verizon senior leadership to put their loved 
ones onto a commercial aircraft that is flying into ORD during a 
blizzard on a Zero-Zero landing (the pilots relying on radio altimeters) 
and the 5G network up and running and then ask how confident they are 
that NOTHING will interfere and 5G is perfectly safe.


On 1/19/22 14:37, Scott McGrath wrote:
> I’m guessing you are not a pilot,  one reason aviation is resistant to 
> change is its history is written in blood,    Unlike tech aviation is 
> incremental change and painstaking testing and documentation of that 
> testing.
> When that does not happen we get stuff like the 737 Max debacle
> Aviation is the antithesis of ‘Move fast and break things mentality’ 
> for a very good reason safety.
> On my flying club’s plane every replacement part comes with a pedigree 
> which is added to the plane’s maintenance log upon installation and 
> the reason for removing the old one recorded
> Imagine how much easier our networks would be to maintain if we had 
> records down to the last cable tie in the data center.   If there was 
> a bug in a SFP+ for instance all of them, when they were installed and 
> by who and what supplier they came from was readily available sure 
> would make my life easier.
> The reasoning behind that massive pile of documents (pilot joke ‘a 
> plane is not ready to fly until the weight of the paperwork equals the 
> weight of the airplane’) is that if a failure is traced to a component 
> all of them can be traced and removed from service.
> On a Airbus for instance all the takeoff and landing safety systems 
> are tied to the RadAlt.  The EU has strict rules about where the 
> c-band can be used as does Japan both use the 120 second rule c-band 
> devices not allowed in areas where the the aircraft is in its 
> beginning/ending 2 minutes of flight.
> So the REST of the world got c-band right the US not so much
> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 10:59 AM Dennis Glatting <dg at pki2.com> wrote:
>     On Tue, 2022-01-18 at 12:29 -0800, Michael Thomas wrote:
>     >
>     > I really don't know anything about it. It seems really late to be
>     > having
>     > this fight now, right?
>     >
>     I worked in aviation as a technologist. Aviation is resistant to
>     change.
>     Any change. When you fly older aircraft, be aware that the software is
>     old. Very old. As in some of the vendors long ago stopped
>     supporting the
>     software kind of old, assuming the vendors still exist.
>     Aviation didn't wake up one day with the sudden appearance of 5G. They
>     knew it was comming. They, aviation themselves, are heavily
>     involved in
>     standards. Aviation had plenty of time to test, correct, and protest.
>     What aviation now wants is a 5G exclusion zone around airports, or
>     what
>     I sarcastically call "a technology exclusion zone," which tends to be
>     businesses and homes. What is aviation going to do when 6G comes
>     along?
>     A new WiFi standard is implemented? Any other unforeseen future
>     wired/wireless technologies? Or perhaps cell phones should go back to
>     Morse Code for aviation's sake?
>     🤷‍♂️️
>     -- 
>     Dennis Glatting
>     Numbers Skeptic
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