Linux: concerns over systemd [OT]

Tue Oct 21 23:13:38 UTC 2014

Probably a lot of it has to do with:
- we're merging udev and a bunch of other things into systemd
- you want GNOME to work, you'd better use systemd
- Canonical (Ubuntu) DIDN'T commit to udev until Debian made the 
decision - they would have kept going with upstart, but when Debian 
committed, they decided they didn't want to support a now-orphaned init 
system
- Gentoo supports systemd as an option, it's fork funtoo doesn't
- Slackware doesn't

Miles Fidelman

Jay Ashworth wrote:
> The thing that I don't understand about systemd is how it managed to get
> *EVERY SINGLE DISTRIBUTION'S RELEASE MANAGER* on board in less than a year,
> given how thoroughly it violates the Unix philosophy, and how poorly
> documented it is -- to the point where you can't even run sysvinit anymore
> unless you're willing to build initscripts by hand, since packages don't
> even include them anymore.
>
> Does Poettering have compromising photographs of all these guys in a
> puppy pile at a Linuxcon somewhere?
>
> Cheers,
> -- jra
>
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Barry Shein" <bzs at world.std.com>
>> To: "Israel G. Lugo" <israel.lugo at lugosys.com>
>> Cc: nanog at nanog.org
>> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2014 3:11:55 PM
>> Subject: Re: Linux: concerns over systemd [OT]
>> I've done a fair amount of hand-to-hand combat with systemd.
>>
>> When it's good it's good, tho not always apparent why it's good. But
>> for example some of my servers boot in seconds.
>>
>> When it's bad it can be painful and incredibly opaque and a huge time
>> sink.
>>
>> Googling for suggestions I've found several threads where the
>> co-author (Poettering) jumps in usually to be annoyingly arrogant (I'm
>> sure he's very bright and good to children and pets and overworked)
>> responding with comments like why don't you just read your logs and
>> not bother this list or similar (that was paraphrased.) The logs are,
>> in my experience, almost always useless or nearly so, "mumble failed
>> to start" basically.
>>
>> I'm not the only one:
>>
>> http://www.muktware.com/2014/04/linus-torvalds-happy-systemd-author-kay-sievers/25151
>>
>> It also resists tools like strace because it tends to do things by
>> IPC. In one extreme case I just reworked an /etc/init.d script to
>> avoid systemd (not use the various /etc/rc.foo files), mostly just hit
>> it with a sledgehammer and put fixing that on my TODO
>> list. Unfortunately I am mortal and have limited time on this earth.
>>
>> My experience as I said is mixed, hard cases are very hard where they
>> really seem like they shouldn't be (just tell me roughly what you're
>> trying to do rather than just fail, eg, via some debug enable), most
>> are just your usual oops it wants this or that situations.
>>
>> I don't think I'd want to revert to sysvinit, systemd seems
>> architecturally superior.
>>
>> But it needs a lot more transparency and some attempt to gather common
>> problems -- like why is it hanging asking for a password on the
>> console when I can't see why it thinks it needs one? -- and FAQ them
>> with real answers or add some code/configuration to fix that (never
>> ask for a password in this script OK? And no --no-ask-password isn't
>> fixing this so stop repeating that answer!)
>>
>> --
>> -Barry Shein
>>
>> The World | bzs at TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
>> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada
>> Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo*


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In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra