spamhaus drop list

Patrick W. Gilmore patrick at
Tue Jun 16 19:43:01 UTC 2009

On Jun 16, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Quinn Mahoney wrote:

> Is there a competing droplist, that can be compared against Spamhaus's
> droplist?  That seems like an extraordinary claim, so I'm not  
> satisfied
> with the evidence provided.  Is this not the best droplist?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.  Mr. Anderson gives  
little proof at all, and not even close to extraordinary proof, IMHO.

My personal experience is that Spamhaus is highly respectable  
organization.  They are by no means perfect, but I trust their  
judgement to a high degree, FWIW.  The Spamhaus DNSRBLs are, I  
believe, the most used on the Internet.  This suggests the rest of the  
Internet has a different opinion than Mr. Anderson.

I have not used MAPS, so I cannot comment on its utility.  but I have  
never heard a single credible claim Mr. Vixie is a spammer, more or  
less a verifiable one.  (Yes, that includes the claim below.)  From my  
personal experience, Mr. Vixie is very much the opposite of a  
spammer.  Mr. Vixie gave the Keynote speech at the NANOG conference  
yesterday, so I would submit the community at large disagrees with Mr.  
Anderson's assessment.

SORBS is probably not as highly regarded as Spamhaus, but as with  
Vixie, not one credible claim has ever been made that Michelle is a  
spammer, including the below.  Again, the opposite is reality, and  
probably to the same extent as Vixie.  (I.e. Some people think they go  
too far in fighting spam, not in sending it.)

Finally, John Levine is not a spammer either.  I'm kinda tired of  
giving proof, so take my word for it, or not, as you please.

Anyway, just some personal opinions from someone who has had personal  
interaction with the people involved and used two of the three  
products mentioned.  Not sure this was operational, but I felt the  
need to step up and defend people after you forwarded the outrageous  
claims below to the list.  (No one on the list saw Mr. Anderson's  
claims other than you, because you were personally CC'ed.)

End of day, your network, your choice.  I think you know mine.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dean Anderson [mailto:dean at]
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 6:10 PM
> To: Quinn Mahoney
> Cc: nanog at
> Subject: Re: spamhaus drop list
> I suggest you avoid spamhaus, MAPS, and SORBS. They are really  
> spammers
> in disguise, using blacklists to harm their competition while  
> presumably
> letting their own spam through. We know they have used trust of the
> anti-spam community to list-wash spam-trap addresses.
> See add the IADL  
> pages
> on Paul Vixie and MAPS.
> You might also look at
> Levine, long head of the Anti-spam Research Group, was also unmasked  
> as
> a spammer.
> Fred Baker <fred at> is on the ISC Board of Trustees, and is a
> Vixie supportor.
> 		--Dean
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009, Quinn Mahoney wrote:
>> I'm looking to implement the Spamhaus drop list.
>> On their FAQ they have a script that looks like it grabs the lists
> text
>> file and connects to a given router, and tells you what has changed  
>> in
>> the list, and what your router is null routing.  I'm not sure if it
> then
>> removes the null routes if a list entry has been removed.  I haven't
>> found much documentation on the net regarding this.  In the future it
>> looks like you will be able to peer with them and null route traffic
>> from a private AS, which will be routes from the drop list.  Right  
>> now
>> though, it looks like you'd have to update an ACL manually for any
>> changes to the list.  Or use this script which null routes the  
>> traffic
>> (I guess it's not a big deal getting the syn packets, as long as the
>> mail won't send because of the null route).  I am not sure if this
>> script updates the null routes automatically, or how to use it, I
> can't
>> find to much documentation.
>> Any documentation on this script or another script available.  What
> are
>> your suggestions?
>> thanks
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