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Randy Bush randy at
Sat Apr 12 03:32:31 UTC 2008

Suresh Ramasubramanian wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 12, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Barry Shein <bzs at>
> wrote:
>> The lesson one should get from all this is that the ultimate harm
>> of spammers et al is that they are succeeding in corrupting the
>> idea of a standards-based internet.

huh?  i think that, with their attacks, they are actually helping to
drive improvements in the standards.  of course, the disfunction of
the standards organizations does not make this as clean a process and as
much of a win as it could be.  but considering that security was not
very thoroughly designed in the original standards, we're not doing all
that badly.  it's always gonna be a chase.

> The lesson here is that different groups at the same ISPs go to
> different places

i am not sure that is so much a lesson as an observation.  the lesson
may be, in part, that this is sub-optimal.  can it be changed?  how?

> Packet pushers go to *NOG.  And the abuse desks mostly all go to 
> MAAWG.  And any CERTs / security types the ISP has go to FIRST and 
> related events.  And most of them never do coordinate internally, run
> by different groups probably in different cities ...

"dear coo/ceo/whomever: i want approval to send the five folk who go to
nanog, and the five folk who go to maawg, and the five folk who go to
first to *all* go to the new frobnitz joint conference."

think that'll fly?

otoh, being on the frobnitz program committee would be an interesting
lesson and exercise in industry physics.

when i first joined acm ('67), i could keep up with a significant
portion of the literature.  now i maybe see a single digit percentage.
the field has broadened.  the ops and other applied areas have similarly
broadened and specialized.  we are victims of our own success.


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