Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block

Fri Jan 12 20:16:10 UTC 2024

I'm not talking about global, public use, only private use. 

----- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Tom Beecher" <beecher at beecher.cc> 
To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog at ics-il.net> 
Cc: "Ryan Hamel" <ryan at rkhtech.org>, "Abraham Y. Chen" <AYChen at alum.mit.edu>, nanog at nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 2:06:32 PM 
Subject: Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block 

You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things "you" use. 

You run an ISP, let me posit something. 

Stipulate your entire network infra, services, and applications support 240/4, and that it's approved for global , public use tomorrow. Some company gets a block in there, stands up some website. Here are some absolutely plausible scenarios that you might have to deal with. 

- Some of your customers are running operating systems / network gear that doesn't support 240/4. 
- Some of your customers may be using 3rd party DNS resolvers that don't support 240/4. 
- Some network in between you and the dest missed a few bogon ACLs , dropping your customer's traffic. 

All of this becomes support issues you have to deal with. 

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 2:21 PM Mike Hammett < nanog at ics-il.net > wrote: 

<blockquote>

I wouldn't say it's unknowable, just that no one with a sufficient enough interest in the cause has been loud enough with the research they've done, assuming some research has been done.. 

You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things "you" use. 

----- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

From: "Tom Beecher" < beecher at beecher.cc > 
To: "Mike Hammett" < nanog at ics-il.net > 
Cc: "Ryan Hamel" < ryan at rkhtech.org >, "Abraham Y. Chen" < AYChen at alum.mit.edu >, nanog at nanog.org 
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2024 1:16:53 PM 
Subject: Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block 

<blockquote>
How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on using the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man. 
</blockquote>

It's unknowable really. 

Lots of network software works just fine today with it. Some don't. To my knowledge some NOS vendors have outright refused to support 240/4 unless it's reclassified. Beyond network equipment, there is an unknowable number of software packages , drivers, etc out in the world which 240/4 is still hardcoded not to work. It's been unfortunate to see this fact handwaved away in many discussions on the subject. 

The Mirai worm surfaced in 2016. The software vulnerabilities used in its attack vectors are still unpatched and present in massive numbers across the internet; there are countless variants that still use the same methods, 8 years later. Other vulnerabilities still exist after multiple decades. But we somehow think devices will be patched to support 240/4 quickly? 

It's just unrealistic. 

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 1:03 PM Mike Hammett < nanog at ics-il.net > wrote: 

<blockquote>

" every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor" 

How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on using the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man. 

----- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 

From: "Ryan Hamel" < ryan at rkhtech.org > 
To: "Abraham Y. Chen" < aychen at avinta.com >, "Vasilenko Eduard" < vasilenko.eduard at huawei.com > 
Cc: "Abraham Y. Chen" < AYChen at alum.MIT.edu >, nanog at nanog.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:04:31 PM 
Subject: Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block 

Abraham, 

You may not need permission from the IETF, but you effectively need it from every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor. If you do not have buy in from key stakeholders, it's dead-on arrival. 

Ryan 

From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan= rkhtech.org at nanog.org > on behalf of Abraham Y. Chen < aychen at avinta.com > 
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 6:38:52 PM 
To: Vasilenko Eduard < vasilenko.eduard at huawei.com > 
Cc: Chen, Abraham Y. < AYChen at alum.MIT.edu >; nanog at nanog.org < nanog at nanog.org > 
Subject: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block 

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments. 

Hi, Vasilenko: 

1) ... These “ multi-national conglo ” has enough influence on the IETF to not permit it. ": 

As classified by Vint Cerf, 240/4 enabled EzIP is an overlay network that may be deployed stealthily (just like the events reported by the RIPE-LAB). So, EzIP deployment does not need permission from the IETF. 

Regards, 

Abe (2024-01-11 21:38 EST) 

On 2024-01-11 01:17, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: 

<blockquote>

> It has been known that multi-national conglomerates have been using it without announcement. 
This is an assurance that 240/4 would never be permitted for Public Internet. These “ multi-national conglo ” has enough influence on the IETF to not permit it. 
Ed/ 

From: NANOG [ mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei.com at nanog.org ] On Behalf Of Abraham Y. Chen 
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 3:35 PM 
To: KARIM MEKKAOUI <amekkaoui at mektel.ca> 
Cc: nanog at nanog.org ; Chen, Abraham Y. <AYChen at alum.MIT.edu> 
Subject: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block 
Importance: High 

Hi, Karim: 

1) If you have control of your own equipment (I presume that your business includes IAP - Internet Access Provider, since you are asking to buy IPv4 blocks.), you can get a large block of reserved IPv4 address for free by disabling the program codes in your current facility that has been disabling the use of 240/4 netblock. Please have a look at the below whitepaper. Utilized according to the outlined disciplines, this is a practically unlimited resources. It has been known that multi-national conglomerates have been using it without announcement. So, you can do so stealthily according to the proposed mechanism which establishes uniform practices, just as well. 

https://www.avinta.com/phoenix-1/home/RevampTheInternet.pdf 

2) Being an unorthodox solution, if not controversial, please follow up with me offline. Unless, other NANOGers express their interests. 

Regards, 

Abe (2024-01-10 07:34 EST) 

On 2024-01-07 22:46, KARIM MEKKAOUI wrote: 
<blockquote>

Hi Nanog Community 

Any idea please on the best way to buy IPv4 blocs and what is the price? 

Thank you 

KARIM 

</blockquote>

Virus-free. www.avast.com 

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

</blockquote>

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