<div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px">You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things "you" use.</span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You run an ISP, let me posit something. </div><div><br></div><div>Stipulate your entire network infra, services, and applications support 240/4, and that it's approved for global , public use tomorrow. Some company gets a block in there, stands up some website. Here are some absolutely plausible scenarios that you might have to deal with. </div><div><br></div><div>- Some of your customers are running operating systems / network gear that doesn't support 240/4. </div><div>- Some of your customers may be using 3rd party DNS resolvers that don't support 240/4.</div><div>- Some network in between you and the dest missed a few bogon ACLs , dropping your customer's traffic. </div><div><br></div><div>All of this becomes support issues you have to deal with. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 2:21 PM Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="msg1424229217608236796"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">I wouldn't say it's unknowable, just that no one with a sufficient enough interest in the cause has been loud enough with the research they've done, assuming some research has been done..<div><br></div><div>You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things "you" use.<br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new 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href="mailto:beecher@beecher.cc" target="_blank">beecher@beecher.cc</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"Ryan Hamel" <<a href="mailto:ryan@rkhtech.org" target="_blank">ryan@rkhtech.org</a>>, "Abraham Y. Chen" <<a href="mailto:AYChen@alum.mit.edu" target="_blank">AYChen@alum.mit.edu</a>>, <a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Friday, January 12, 2024 1:16:53 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block<br><br><div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px">How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on using the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man.</span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It's unknowable really. </div><div><br></div><div>Lots of network software works just fine today with it. Some don't. To my knowledge some NOS vendors have outright refused to support 240/4 unless it's reclassified. Beyond network equipment, there is an unknowable number of software packages , drivers, etc out in the world which 240/4 is still hardcoded not to work. It's been unfortunate to see this fact handwaved away in many discussions on the subject. </div><div><br></div><div>The Mirai worm surfaced in 2016. The software vulnerabilities used in its attack vectors are still unpatched and present in massive numbers across the internet; there are countless variants that still use the same methods, 8 years later. Other vulnerabilities still exist after multiple decades. But we somehow think devices will be patched to support 240/4 quickly? </div><div><br></div><div>It's just unrealistic. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 1:03 PM Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">" every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor"<div><br></div><div>How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on using the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man.<br><br><div><span></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">-----</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new 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rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png"></a><span></span><br></div><hr id="m_1424229217608236796m_8107942664140732708zwchr"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><b>From: </b>"Ryan Hamel" <<a href="mailto:ryan@rkhtech.org" target="_blank">ryan@rkhtech.org</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Abraham Y. Chen" <<a href="mailto:aychen@avinta.com" target="_blank">aychen@avinta.com</a>>, "Vasilenko Eduard" <<a href="mailto:vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com" target="_blank">vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"Abraham Y. Chen" <<a href="mailto:AYChen@alum.MIT.edu" target="_blank">AYChen@alum.MIT.edu</a>>, <a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:04:31 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block<br><br>
<div dir="auto">Abraham,</div>
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<div dir="auto">You may not need permission from the IETF, but you effectively need it from every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor. If you do not have buy in from key stakeholders, it's dead-on arrival.</div>
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<div dir="auto">Ryan</div>
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<div id="m_1424229217608236796m_8107942664140732708divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" style="font-size:11pt" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=<a href="mailto:rkhtech.org@nanog.org" target="_blank">rkhtech.org@nanog.org</a>> on behalf of Abraham Y. Chen <<a href="mailto:aychen@avinta.com" target="_blank">aychen@avinta.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, January 11, 2024 6:38:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Vasilenko Eduard <<a href="mailto:vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com" target="_blank">vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com</a>><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Chen, Abraham Y. <<a href="mailto:AYChen@alum.MIT.edu" target="_blank">AYChen@alum.MIT.edu</a>>; <a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a> <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block</font>
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<div><font size="4">Hi, Vasilenko:</font></div>
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<div><font size="4">1) ... <font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">These “</span></font>multi-national conglo<font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">” has enough influence on the IETF to not permit it.</span></font>":</font></div>
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<div><font size="4"> As classified by Vint Cerf, 240/4 enabled EzIP is an overlay network that may be deployed stealthily (just like the events reported by the RIPE-LAB). So, EzIP deployment does not need permission from the IETF.</font></div>
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<div><font size="4">Regards,</font></div>
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<div><font size="4">Abe (2024-01-11 21:38 EST)</font><br>
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<div>On 2024-01-11 01:17, Vasilenko Eduard wrote:<br>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">>
</span></font><font size="4"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">It has been known that multi-national conglomerates have been using it without announcement.</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)"></span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">This is an assurance that 240/4 would never be permitted for Public Internet. These “</span></font><font size="4"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">multi-national
conglo</span></font><font color="#1f497d"><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125)">” has enough influence on the IETF to not permit it.</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri" color="#1f497d"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">Ed/</span></font></p>
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<p><b><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-weight:bold">From:</span></font></b> NANOG [<a href="mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei.com@nanog.org" target="_blank">mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei.com@nanog.org</a>]
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">On Behalf Of </span></b>Abraham Y. Chen<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, January 10, 2024 3:35 PM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> KARIM MEKKAOUI <a href="mailto:amekkaoui@mektel.ca" target="_blank">
<amekkaoui@mektel.ca></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Cc:</span></b> <a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">
nanog@nanog.org</a>; Chen, Abraham Y. <a href="mailto:AYChen@alum.MIT.edu" target="_blank">
<AYChen@alum.MIT.edu></a><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Importance:</span></b> High</p>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Hi, Karim:</span></font><font size="3"><span style="font-size:12pt"></span></font></p>
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<p><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">1) If you have control of your own equipment (I presume that your business includes IAP - Internet Access Provider, since you are asking to buy IPv4 blocks.), you can get
a large block of reserved IPv4 address <b><i><u><span style="font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">for free</span></u></i></b> by
<b><i><u><span style="font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">disabling</span></u></i></b> the program codes in your current facility that has been
<b><i><u><span style="font-weight:bold;font-style:italic">disabling</span></u></i></b> the use of 240/4 netblock. Please have a look at the below whitepaper. Utilized according to the outlined disciplines, this is a practically unlimited resources. It has
been known that multi-national conglomerates have been using it without announcement. So, you can do so stealthily according to the proposed mechanism which establishes uniform practices, just as well. </span></font></p>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">
<a href="https://www.avinta.com/phoenix-1/home/RevampTheInternet.pdf" target="_blank">
https://www.avinta.com/phoenix-1/home/RevampTheInternet.pdf</a></span></font></p>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">2) Being an unorthodox solution, if not controversial, please follow up with me offline. Unless, other NANOGers express their interests.</span></font></p>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></font></p>
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<p><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Regards,</span></font></p>
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<p><font size="4" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Abe (2024-01-10 07:34 EST)</span></font></p>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">On 2024-01-07 22:46, KARIM MEKKAOUI wrote:</span></font></p>
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<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Hi Nanog Community</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Any idea please on the best way to buy IPv4 blocs and what is the price?</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt">Thank you</span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size:11pt"> </span></font></p>
<p><font size="2" face="Calibri" color="#1f497d"><span lang="FR-CA" style="font-size:11pt;color:rgb(31,73,125)">KARIM
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<p style="line-height:13.5pt"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#41424e"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(65,66,78)">Virus-free.<a href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient" target="_blank"><font color="#4453ea"><span style="color:rgb(68,83,234)">www.avast.com</span></font></a></span></font></p>
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