<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'>BGP knows nothing about the importance of a given prefix.<div><br><div><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">-----</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">Mike Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Intelligent Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Midwest Internet Exchange</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">The Brothers WISP</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><span name="x"></span><br></div><hr id="zwchr"><div style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org><br><b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net><br><b>Cc: </b>"Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc>, "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, January 5, 2023 10:30:35 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br><br>
<div dir="ltr">Mike,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Your original question was:</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>“Given that the project was abandoned six years ago, are there any other efforts with a similar goal (more intelligently placing routes into FIBs of low-FIB capacity devices?”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>People then, respectfully, tried to clarify your request or explain why placing routes in a low-FIB capacity device isn’t seen as being beneficial. Only now have you added the desire to simply have “more than a default route” in such a router. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You can, of course, have more than a default route today - e.g., through local pref and BGP communities for things such as company routes. You haven’t said what you define as “more intelligently”, so perhaps you can more clearly explain the problem you
see with the current BGP capabilities via some examples. <br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr"> -mel</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote>On Jan 5, 2023, at 8:02 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000">
Then please bless the world with the right way.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>You acknowledge that not every router in a network needs to be fully DFZ capable, but then crap on my desire to have more than a default route in one.<br>
<br>
<div><span></span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">-----</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">Mike
Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Intelligent
Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Midwest
Internet Exchange</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">The
Brothers WISP</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img style="border:0pt none" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png"></a><span></span><br>
</div>
<hr id="zwchr">
<div style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;">
<b>From: </b>"Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc><br>
<b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org>, "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:55:38 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px">"The right tool for the job" gets into a religious argument in assuming that one's way to do the job is the only reasonable way to do the job</span></blockquote>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I disagree that it's religious. I completely agree there are locations in networks that having full DFZ capable routers doesn't make technical or economic sense. But there have long been different products for those different use cases. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>To perhaps explain my viewpoint better,(and perhaps I didn't properly comprehend the problem you're aiming to solve) :</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you are trying to use SDN stuff to shuffle routes on and off a box because you have the wrong sized routers in place, then I would argue you're doing it wrong. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you are trying to use SDN stuff to (as Christopher mentioned) make decisions that are not strictly LPM, and the equipment you have cannot do that, then that's different and entirely reasonable. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the second use case is more of what you were asking, then I apologize for misunderstanding. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 9:57 AM Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div class="msg-318554328678421716">
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
"The right tool for the job" gets into a religious argument in assuming that one's way to do the job is the only reasonable way to do the job.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Large networks historically have a very poor (IMO) model of gigantic iron in a few locations, which results in sub-optimal routing for the rest of their network between those large POPs. I've heard time and time again that someone buying service from a
major network in say New Orleans has a first hop of Dallas or Atlanta. I agree that full-route capable routers need to be in the large, central locations, but it isn't cost effective to have them at every POP, especially if you're a last-mile provider.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'd go into more examples of where it doesn't make sense to have full-route routers everywhere, but I'm afraid that the Internet would then focus on the examples instead of the core idea of intelligently putting routes into the FIBs of low-FIB routers
throughout my network.<br>
<br>
<div><span></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">-----</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">Mike
Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Intelligent
Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Midwest
Internet Exchange</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The
Brothers WISP</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png"></a><span></span><br>
</div>
<hr id="m_-318554328678421716zwchr">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<b>From: </b>"Tom Beecher" <<a href="mailto:beecher@beecher.cc" target="_blank">beecher@beecher.cc</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"Mel Beckman" <<a href="mailto:mel@beckman.org" target="_blank">mel@beckman.org</a>>, "NANOG" <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, January 4, 2023 7:36:58 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br>
<br>
<div dir="auto">Disagree that it’s a line in the sand. It’s use the right tool for the job. </div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">If a device is low FIB, it’s that way for a reason. There are plenty of ways to massage that with policy and software, depending on capabilities , but at the end of the day, trying to sort 10 pounds of shit to store in a 5 pound bag is eventually
going to end up the same way. </div>
<div><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 13:18 Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
There are likely more networks with 10 gigabit or less total external capacity than there are with more.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Creating imaginary lines in the sand doesn't really help anyone.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<div><br>
<br>
<div><span></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">-----</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">Mike
Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Intelligent
Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Midwest
Internet Exchange</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The
Brothers WISP</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png"></a><span></span><br>
</div>
<hr id="m_-318554328678421716m_7100424381707401596zwchr">
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<b>From: </b>"Mel Beckman" <<a href="mailto:mel@beckman.org" target="_blank">mel@beckman.org</a>><br>
<b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>><br>
<b>Cc: </b>"NANOG" <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, January 3, 2023 10:57:34 AM<br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br>
<br>
<p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span>It’s not a problem, due to cheap, plentiful high-speed memory and rapid prefix search silicon in backbone routers. The entire Internet routing table consumes at most a few gigabytes
when fully structured (and only a few hundred Mbytes stored flat). <span> </span>That’s less memory than your average laptop sports. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;min-height:34px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span>Even in the worst case scenario, where every network decides to announce only its most specific prefixes, the BGP backbone would temporarily enter an oscillating state that
generates a large number of routing updates into the inter-domain routing space. In this case, BGP route damping will quickly suppress the crazies while <span> </span>the backbone stabilizes.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;min-height:34px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span>Small routers should not be taking full tables, since there is no point to them being in the default free zone. For large routers, neither memory nor CPU speed are an issue.
High-speed routers operating in the default-free zone have a critical path in the forwarding decision for each packet: it needs to take less than the inter-packet arrival time for minimum-sized IP packets.</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;min-height:34px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<span></span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin:0px;font-stretch:normal;line-height:normal;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span>This is easy to achieve with today’s hardware. A router line card with an aggregate line rate across all of its point-to-point interfaces of 10Tbps (readily available in today’s
gear) can process packets with just a handful of cycles in the FIB Ternary Content Addressable Memory (TCAM) using ASIC-assisted lookups. TCAM is the most expensive component you’re paying for in such a router. <span> </span>It’s not cheap, <span> </span>but
backbone routers don’t need to be cheap. They just need to not be memory-constrained. </span></p>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">-mel via cell</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote>On Jan 3, 2023, at 7:47 AM, Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">
<font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px"><a href="https://github.com/dbarrosop/sir" target="_blank">https://github.com/dbarrosop/sir</a></span></font>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px"><br>
</span></font></div>
<div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size:13.3333px">I came across this over the weekend. Given that the project was abandoned six years ago, are there any other efforts with a similar goal (more intelligently placing routes into
FIBs of low-FIB capacity devices?<br>
</span></font><br>
<div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">
<span></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">-----</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">Mike
Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Intelligent
Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Midwest
Internet Exchange</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The
Brothers WISP</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px">
<a href="https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;" src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png"></a><span></span><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div><br></div></div></body></html>