<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Very true.</span></font><br><br><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">https://www.cidr-report.org/cgi-bin/plota?file=%2fvar%2fdata%2fbgp%2fas2.0%2fbgp%2dactive%2etxt&descr=Active%20BGP%20entries%20%28FIB%29&ylabel=Active%20BGP%20entries%20%28FIB%29&with=step</span></font><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">"big enough" equipment from not that long ago couldn't carry a full table today (or tomorrow).<br></span></font><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">-----</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">Mike Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:'times new 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roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png" 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Brothers WISP</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><span name="x"></span><br></div><hr id="zwchr" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; text-decoration: none;"><b>From: </b>"Joe Maimon" <jmaimon@jmaimon.com><br><b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc><br><b>Cc: </b>"NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, January 5, 2023 2:22:22 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br><br>Lots of 1M tcam fib limits in older gear.......<br><br>So yeah, its the same problem, bigger numbers and still not solved in <br>any sort of non-painful or expensive way.<br><br>I think Ill explore the google path and paper on it again.<br><br>Joe<br><br>Mike Hammett wrote:<br>> Then please bless the world with the right way.<br>><br>> You acknowledge that not every router in a network needs to be fully <br>> DFZ capable, but then crap on my desire to have more than a default <br>> route in one.<br>><br>><br>><br>> -----<br>> Mike Hammett<br>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> *From: *"Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc><br>> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net><br>> *Cc: *"Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org>, "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org><br>> *Sent: *Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:55:38 AM<br>> *Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br>><br>> "The right tool for the job" gets into a religious argument in<br>> assuming that one's way to do the job is the only reasonable way<br>> to do the job<br>><br>><br>> I disagree that it's religious. I completely agree there are locations <br>> in networks that having full DFZ capable routers doesn't make <br>> technical or economic sense. But there have long been different <br>> products for those different use cases.<br>><br>> To perhaps explain my viewpoint better,(and perhaps I didn't properly <br>> comprehend the problem you're aiming to solve) :<br>><br>> If you are trying to use SDN stuff to shuffle routes on and off a box <br>> because you have the wrong sized routers in place, then I would argue <br>> you're doing it wrong.<br>><br>> If you are trying to use SDN stuff to (as Christopher mentioned) make <br>> decisions that are not strictly LPM, and the equipment you have cannot <br>> do that, then that's different and entirely reasonable.<br>><br>> If the second use case is more of what you were asking, then I <br>> apologize for misunderstanding.<br>><br>><br>> On Thu, Jan 5, 2023 at 9:57 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <br>> <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:<br>><br>> "The right tool for the job" gets into a religious argument in<br>> assuming that one's way to do the job is the only reasonable way<br>> to do the job.<br>><br>> Large networks historically have a very poor (IMO) model of<br>> gigantic iron in a few locations, which results in sub-optimal<br>> routing for the rest of their network between those large POPs.<br>> I've heard time and time again that someone buying service from a<br>> major network in say New Orleans has a first hop of Dallas or<br>> Atlanta. I agree that full-route capable routers need to be in the<br>> large, central locations, but it isn't cost effective to have them<br>> at every POP, especially if you're a last-mile provider.<br>><br>> I'd go into more examples of where it doesn't make sense to have<br>> full-route routers everywhere, but I'm afraid that the Internet<br>> would then focus on the examples instead of the core idea of<br>> intelligently putting routes into the FIBs of low-FIB routers<br>> throughout my network.<br>><br>><br>><br>> -----<br>> Mike Hammett<br>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> *From: *"Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc <mailto:beecher@beecher.cc>><br>> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>><br>> *Cc: *"Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org <mailto:mel@beckman.org>>,<br>> "NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>><br>> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 4, 2023 7:36:58 AM<br>> *Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br>><br>> Disagree that it’s a line in the sand. It’s use the right tool for<br>> the job.<br>><br>> If a device is low FIB, it’s that way for a reason. There are<br>> plenty of ways to massage that with policy and software, depending<br>> on capabilities , but at the end of the day, trying to sort 10<br>> pounds of shit to store in a 5 pound bag is eventually going to<br>> end up the same way.<br>><br>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2023 at 13:18 Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<br>> <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:<br>><br>> There are likely more networks with 10 gigabit or less total<br>> external capacity than there are with more.<br>><br>> Creating imaginary lines in the sand doesn't really help anyone.<br>><br>><br>><br>><br>> -----<br>> Mike Hammett<br>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> *From: *"Mel Beckman" <mel@beckman.org <mailto:mel@beckman.org>><br>> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>><br>> *Cc: *"NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>><br>> *Sent: *Tuesday, January 3, 2023 10:57:34 AM<br>> *Subject: *Re: SDN Internet Router (sir)<br>><br>> It’s not a problem, due to cheap, plentiful high-speed memory<br>> and rapid prefix search silicon in backbone routers. The<br>> entire Internet routing table consumes at most a few gigabytes<br>> when fully structured (and only a few hundred Mbytes stored<br>> flat). That’s less memory than your average laptop sports.<br>><br>><br>> Even in the worst case scenario, where every network decides<br>> to announce only its most specific prefixes, the BGP backbone<br>> would temporarily enter an oscillating state that generates a<br>> large number of routing updates into the inter-domain routing<br>> space. In this case, BGP route damping will quickly suppress<br>> the crazies while the backbone stabilizes.<br>><br>><br>> Small routers should not be taking full tables, since there is<br>> no point to them being in the default free zone. For large<br>> routers, neither memory nor CPU speed are an issue. High-speed<br>> routers operating in the default-free zone have a critical<br>> path in the forwarding decision for each packet: it needs to<br>> take less than the inter-packet arrival time for minimum-sized<br>> IP packets.<br>><br>><br>> This is easy to achieve with today’s hardware. A router line<br>> card with an aggregate line rate across all of its<br>> point-to-point interfaces of 10Tbps (readily available in<br>> today’s gear) can process packets with just a handful of<br>> cycles in the FIB Ternary Content Addressable Memory (TCAM)<br>> using ASIC-assisted lookups. TCAM is the most expensive<br>> component you’re paying for in such a router. It’s not cheap,<br>> but backbone routers don’t need to be cheap. They just need to<br>> not be memory-constrained.<br>><br>><br>> -mel via cell<br>><br>> On Jan 3, 2023, at 7:47 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<br>> <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:<br>><br>> <br>> https://github.com/dbarrosop/sir<br>><br>> I came across this over the weekend. Given that the<br>> project was abandoned six years ago, are there any other<br>> efforts with a similar goal (more intelligently placing<br>> routes into FIBs of low-FIB capacity devices?<br>><br>><br>><br>> -----<br>> Mike Hammett<br>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>><br>><br>><br>><br><br></div><br></div></div></body></html>