<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">In short:<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Amazon</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Alibaba</div><div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Google Cloud</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">And a few other laggards that are key destinations that a lot of eyeball customers expect to be</div><div class="">able to reach.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Owen</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Mar 29, 2022, at 13:53 , Jacques Latour <<a href="mailto:Jacques.Latour@cira.ca" class="">Jacques.Latour@cira.ca</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta charset="UTF-8" class=""><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1; caret-color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">So, in 25, 50 or 100 years from now, are we still going to be dual stack IPv4/IPv6?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">When are we going to give up on IPv4?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">People can run IPv4 all they want inside their networks for 1000s of years.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class="">What will it take to be IPv6 only?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-family: "Segoe UI Emoji", sans-serif;" class="">😊</span><span class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div><div class=""><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><b class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>NANOG <<a href="mailto:nanog-bounces+jacques.latour=cira.ca@nanog.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">nanog-bounces+jacques.latour=cira.ca@nanog.org</a>><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Owen DeLong via NANOG<br class=""><b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>March 29, 2022 3:52 PM<br class=""><b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Abraham Y. Chen <<a href="mailto:aychen@avinta.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">aychen@avinta.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>NANOG <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[EXT] Re: Let's Focus on Moving Forward Re: V6 still not supported re: 202203261833.AYC<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Submit an Internet draft, same as any other IP related enhancement gets introduced.<o:p class=""></o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">What you’re really complaining about is that it’s been virtually impossible to gain consensus to move anything IPv4 related forward in the IETF since at least 2015.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Well… It’s a consensus process. If your idea isn’t getting consensus, then perhaps it’s simply that the group you are seeking consensus from doesn’t like your idea.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Your inability to convince the members of the various working groups that your idea has merit isn’t necessarily a defect in the IETF process… It might simply be a lack of merit in your ideas.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Owen<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><br class=""><br class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Mar 26, 2022, at 15:43 , Abraham Y. Chen <<a href="mailto:aychen@avinta.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">aychen@avinta.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">Hi, Justin:</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">1) "... no one is stopping anyone from working on IPv4 ... ": After all these discussions, are you still denying this basic issue? For example, there has not been any straightforward way to introduce IPv4 enhancement ideas to IETF since at least 2015. If you know the way, please make it public. I am sure that many are eager to learn about it. Thanks.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">Regards,</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">Abe (2022-03-26 18:42)</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On 2022-03-26 11:20, Justin Streiner wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class=""><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">While the Internet is intended to allow the free exchange of information, the means of getting that information from place to place is and has to be defined by protocols that are implemented in a consistent manner (see: BGP, among many other examples). It's important to separate the ideas from the plumbing.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">That said, no one is stopping anyone from working on IPv4, so what personal freedoms are being impacted by working toward deploying IPv6, with an eye toward sunsetting IPv4 in the future?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Keep in mind that IPv4 started out as an experiment that found its way into wider use. It's a classic case of a test deployment that suddenly mutated into a production service. Why should we continue to expend effort to perpetuate the sins of the past, rather work toward getting v6 into wider use?<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Is IPv6 a perfect protocol? Absolutely not, but it addresses the key pain point of IPv4 - address space exhaustion.<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">Thank you<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">jms<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div></div><div class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">On Sat, Mar 26, 2022 at 9:35 AM Abraham Y. Chen <<a href="mailto:aychen@avinta.com" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline;" class="">aychen@avinta.com</a>> wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm;" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div><div class=""><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0cm 36pt; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 13.5pt;" class="">3) Re: Ur. Pts. 5) & 6): I believe that there is a philosophic / logic baseline that we need to sort out, first. That is, we must keep in mind that the Internet community strongly promotes "<b class=""><i class="">personal freedom</i></b>". Assuming that by stopping others from working on IPv4 will shift their energy to IPv6 is totally contradicting such a principle. A project attracts contributors by its own merits, not by relying on artificial barriers to the competitions. Based on my best understanding, IPv6 failed right after the decision of "not emphasizing the backward compatibility with IPv4". It broke one of the golden rules in the system engineering discipline. After nearly three decades, still evading such fact, but defusing IPv6 issues by various tactics is the real impedance to progress, not only to IPv4 but also to IPv6.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div></div><div id="gmail-m_4226728999263060367DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" class=""><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="1" cellspacing="3" cellpadding="0" style="margin-left: 36pt; border-style: solid none none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(211, 212, 222);"><tbody class=""><tr class=""><td width="55" style="width: 41.25pt; border: none; padding: 9.75pt 0.75pt 0.75pt;" class=""></td></tr></tbody></table></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>