<div dir="ltr">What is the embarrassment?</div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 4:28 PM Michael Thomas <<a href="mailto:mike@mtcc.com">mike@mtcc.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
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<div>On 2/16/22 1:13 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">I'll once again please ask for specific examples as
I continue to see the generic "it isn't in some parts of San
Jose".
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<div>On the note of the generic area of San Jose, I'm all but
certain this has a lot to do with California and its
extraordinarily complicated and near impossible
accessibility to obtain CLEC status. This makes competition
pretty much impossible and makes the costs of operating one
extraordinarily high. I'm obviously not going to be one that
claims that government is good or bad, just pointing out a
certain correlation which could potentially be causation.</div>
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<p>Sonic has been installing fiber in San Francisco and other areas,
but they are really small. Comcast can't be bothered that I've
ever heard. The only other real alternative is things like
Monkeybrains which is a WISP. It's really an embarrassment. <br>
</p>
<p>Mike<br>
</p>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Feb 16, 2022 at 12:52
PM Owen DeLong <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" target="_blank">owen@delong.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div>On Feb 11, 2022, at 13:14 , Josh Luthman <<a href="mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com" target="_blank">josh@imaginenetworksllc.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Because literally every case I've seen
along these lines is someone complaining about the
coax connection is "only 100 meg when I pay for 200
meg". Comcast was the most hated company and yet
they factually had better speeds (possibly in part
to their subjectively terrible customer service) for
years.
<div><br>
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<div>>An apartment building could have cheap 1G
fiber and the houses across the street have no
option but slow DSL.</div>
<div><br>
Where is this example? Or is this strictly
hypothetical?<br>
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There are literally dozens (if not thousands) of such
examples in silicon valley alone.</div>
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<div>I am not seeing any examples, anywhere, with
accurate data, where it's what most consider to
be in town/urban and poor speeds. The only one
that was close was Jared and I'm pretty sure
when I saw the map I wouldn't consider that in
town (could be wrong) but again, there's gig
fiber there now. I don't remember if he
actually got his CLEC, or why that matters, but
there's fiber there now.</div>
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Pretty sure you would have a hard time calling San Jose
“not in town”. It’s literally #11 in the largest 200
cities in the US with a population of 1,003,120 (954,940
in the 2010 census) and a population density of 5,642
people/sq. mile (compare to #4 Houston, TX at 3,632/Sq.
Mi.).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Similar conditions exist in parts of Los Angeles, #2 on
the same list at 3,985,516 (3,795,512 in 2010 census) and
8,499/Sq. Mi.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I speak of California because it’s where I have the
most information. I’m sure this situation exists in other
states as well, but I don’t have actual data.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The simple reality is that there are three sets of
incentives that utilities tend to chase and neither of
them provides for the mezzo-urban and sub-urban parts of
America…</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1.<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>USF
— Mostly supports rural deployments.</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2.<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Extreme
High Density — High-Rise apartments in dense arrays, Not
areas of town houses, smaller apartment complexes, or
single family dwellings.</div>
<div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>3.<span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>Neighborhoods
full of McMansions — Mostly built very recently and where
the developers would literally pay the utilities to
pre-deploy in order to boost sales prices.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Outside of those incentives, there’s very little actual
deployment of broadband improvements, leaving vast
quantities of average Americans underserved.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Owen</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb 11,
2022 at 4:05 PM Brandon Svec via NANOG <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">What
is the point of these anecdotes? Surely anyone
on this list with even a passing knowledge of
the broadband landscape in the United States
knows how hit or miss it can be. An
apartment building could have cheap 1G fiber
and the houses across the street have no
option but slow DSL. Houses could have
reliable high speed cable internet, but the
office park across the field has no such
choice because the buildout cost is
prohibitively high to get fiber, etc.</div>
<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace"><br>
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<div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:monospace,monospace">There
are plenty of places with only one or two
choices of provider too. Of course, this is
literally changing by the minute as new
services are continually being added and
upgraded.</div>
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<td><strong><font>Brandon
Svec</font></strong><font> </font><font><br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Feb
11, 2022 at 12:36 PM Josh Luthman <<a href="mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com" target="_blank">josh@imaginenetworksllc.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">OK the one example you provided
has gigabit fiber though.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri,
Feb 11, 2022 at 8:41 AM Tom Beecher <<a href="mailto:beecher@beecher.cc" target="_blank">beecher@beecher.cc</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Can
you provide examples?<br>
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<div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twe6uTwOyJo&ab_channel=NANOG" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twe6uTwOyJo&ab_channel=NANOG</a></div>
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<div>Our good friend Jared could only
get 1.5M DSL living just outside Ann
Arbor, MI, so he had to start his own
CLEC. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have friends in
significantly more rural areas than he
lives in ( Niagara and Orleans county
NYS , between Niagara Falls and
Rochester ) who have the same 400Mb
package from Spectrum that I do,
living in the City of Niagara Falls. </div>
<div><br>
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<div>This is not to say that rural
America is a mecca of connectivity;
there is a long way to go all the way
around regardless. But it is a direct
example as you asked for. </div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:57 PM Josh
Luthman <<a href="mailto:josh@imaginenetworksllc.com" target="_blank">josh@imaginenetworksllc.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<div dir="ltr">>There are plenty of
urban and suburban areas in America
that are far worse off from a
broadband perspective than “rural
America”.<br>
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<div>Can you provide examples?</div>
</div>
<br>
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<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On
Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:51 PM Owen
DeLong via NANOG <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
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<br>
> On Jun 2, 2021, at 02:10 ,
Mark Tinka <<a href="mailto:mark@tinka.africa" target="_blank">mark@tinka.africa</a>>
wrote:<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On 6/2/21 11:04, Owen DeLong
wrote:<br>
> <br>
>> I disagree… If it could
be forced into a standardized
format using a standardized
approach to data acquisition and
reliable comparable results across
providers, it could be a very
useful adjunct to real
competition.<br>
> <br>
> If we can't even agree on
what "minimum speed for U.S.
broadband connections" actually
means, fat chance having a
"nutritional facts" at the back of
the "Internet in a tea cup"
dropped off at your door step.<br>
> <br>
> I'm not saying it's not
useful, I'm just saying that
easily goes down the "what color
should we use for the bike shed"
territory, while people in rural
America still have no or poor
Internet access.<br>
> <br>
> Mark.<br>
<br>
ROFLMAO…<br>
<br>
People in Rural America seem to be
doing just fine. Most of the ones
I know at least have GPON or
better.<br>
<br>
Meanwhile, here in San Jose, a
city that bills itself as “The
Capital of Silicon Valley”, the
best I can get is Comcast (which
does finally purport to be Gig
down), but rarely delivers that.<br>
<br>
Yes, anything involving the
federal government will get the
full bike shed treatment no matter
what we do.<br>
<br>
There are plenty of urban and
suburban areas in America that are
far worse off from a broadband
perspective than “rural America”.<br>
<br>
Owen<br>
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