<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 14, 2021, at 12:58 , Michael Thomas <<a href="mailto:mike@mtcc.com" class="">mike@mtcc.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/14/21 5:37 AM, Eliot Lear wrote:<br class="">
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<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:fd1eaea5-a4d7-0533-4fae-028cf35e7196@ofcourseimright.com" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" class=""><p class="">8+8 came <b class="">MUCH</b> later than that, and really wasn't ready
for prime time. The reason we know that is that work was the
basis of LISP and ILNP. Yes, standing on the shoulders of
giants. And there certainly were poor design decisions in IPv6,
bundling IPsec being one. But the idea that operators were
ignored? Feh.<br class="">
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</blockquote><p class="">I wasn't there at actual meetings at the time but I find the
notion that operators were ignored pretty preposterous too. There
was a significant amount of bleed over between the two as I recall
from going to Interop's. What incentive do vendors have to ignore
their customers? Vendors have incentive to listen to customer
requirements and abstract them to take into account things can't
see on the outside, but to actually give the finger to them? And
given how small the internet community was back while this was
happening, I find it even more unlikely. <br class=""></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>You’d be surprised… Vendors often get well down a path before exposing enough information to the community to get the negative feedback their solution so richly deserves. At that point, they have rather strong incentives to push for the IETF adopting their solution over customer objections because of entrenched code-base and a desire not to go back and explain to management that the idea they’ve been working on for the last 6 months is stillborn.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""></div></body></html>