<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 31, 2021, at 00:44 , Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><br class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 31 Aug 2021, 03:08 Owen DeLong, <<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">owen@delong.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=""><br class=""><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Aug 30, 2021, at 16:19 , Noah <<a href="mailto:noah@neo.co.tz" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">noah@neo.co.tz</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class=""><br class="">Owen,</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote" dir="auto"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, 31 Aug 2021, 02:10 Owen DeLong via NANOG, <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">nanog@nanog.org</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br class="">
<br class="">
> On Aug 30, 2021, at 07:44 , Mark Tinka <<a href="mailto:mark@tinka.africa" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">mark@tinka.africa</a>> wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
> <br class="">
> On 8/30/21 16:19, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote:<br class="">
> <br class="">
>> You may not like Lu and/or his business model. I’m not a fan of his business model myself, but it is technically permitted under existing policy.<br class="">
> <br class="">
> And yet you continue to work for and support him in this capacity.<br class="">
<br class="">
Yes… Because it is permitted by the rules as they exist.</blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Cloud Innovation your employer is in the business of leasing IPv4 addresses in Asia, USA and Europe etc.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Not my employer, my client.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">AFRINIC has never permitted this and Ashil from AFRINIC publicly stated as such in the below archived thread.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Yet their policies do not prohibit it.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">AFRINIC policies are developed by the community in-line with AFRINIC constitution and related RSA is signed by resource members in-line with the AFRINIC constitution which enshrines the objectives of AFRINIC as the RIR for Africa region.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Yes.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>And currently, those policies do not prohibit or place any limitations on out of region use except those enshrined in the soft landing policy.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>An attempt was made to create a policy several years ago to prohibit or restrict out of region use. That proposal did not receive general support from the community and was eventually withdrawn by the author.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=""><div class=""> If you can find someplace where it is actually documented as a violation of policy, then by</div><div class="">all means, provide that, but you have so far failed to do so despite repeatedly bringing up this argument.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">I will quote from the AFRINIC bylaws (constution) here <a href="https://afrinic.net/bylaws/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" class="">https://afrinic.net/bylaws/</a><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><p style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:roboto,sans-serif;font-size:14.4px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class="">3.4) The Company shall have, both within and outside the Republic of Mauritius, full capacity to carry and/or undertake any business or activity, including but not limited to the following objects:</p><ol style="color:rgb(51,51,51);font-family:roboto,sans-serif;font-size:14.4px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)" class=""><li class="">to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols and to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region;</li><li class="">to promote the representation of AFRINIC membership and the Internet community of the African region by ensuring open and transparent communication and consensus-driven decision-making processes;</li><li class="">to promote responsible management of Internet resources throughout the African region, as well as the responsible development and operation of Internet infrastructures; </li></ol></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Yes: </div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><ol class="" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><li class="">to provide the service of allocating and registering Internet resources for the purposes of enabling communications via open system network protocols</li></ol></div></div></blockquote><div class="">Which covers what Cloud Innovation is doing, so is allowed by the bylaws…</div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><ol class="" style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: roboto, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><li class="">and to assist in the development and growth of the Internet in the African region;</li></ol></div></div></blockquote><div class="">This creates an additional capability for AFRINIC, but in no way imposes a restriction on its members.</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The same can be said of clauses 2 and 3. As written, this section of the bylaws is clearly written to define the key obligations and responsibilities of the company (AFRINIC). Other than possibly the first item, as covered above, there is nothing here which restricts or inhibits the conduct of AFRINIC’s members.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It’s simply not sufficient to say “they never allowed this” if it’s not prohibited by actual policy.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Allocation policies are such that resource members abide by the AFRINIC constitution.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Yes… Which Cloud Innovation has done.</div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">See above section 3.4 and the relevant subsections that refer to management of number resource in reference to Africa region.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>As I have shown, section 3.4 does not impose the restrictions you appear to think it does. The plain text reading of the language in section 3.4 is the obligations and/or duties imposed on AFRINIC. It does not extend those obligations or duties to AFRINIC’s members.</div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word;line-break:after-white-space" class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><div dir="auto" class=""><a href="https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">https://lists.afrinic.net/pipermail/community-discuss/2021-February/003907.html</a><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">You always claim policy blah blah blah in your defence of Cloud Innovation Ltd and Larus business model.</div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">But there it is. AFRINIC has never approved any IPv4 space for purposes of leasing them for money as through they were a product.</div></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>Except that they have and do every day… ISPs all lease IPv4 space for money. That’s what they do with them. They certainly don’t use<div class="">them exclusively on their own networks… They lease them to their customers.</div></div></blockquote></div></div><div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">AFRINIC has never approved IPv4 for purposes of leasing. There is a public statement to this effect.</div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div>Yes. Nonetheless, it does not change the fact that every LIR that is a resource member of AFRINIC leases IPV4 addresses every day, nor does</div><div>it change the fact that every allocation AFRINIC has ever issued to any LIR has been for the purpose of leasing them to customers. It’s just one</div><div>of many false public statements made by AFRINIC staff in the past several years.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>Owen</div><div><br class=""></div></body></html>