<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'>The post to which I replied specifically called for a converged network for all operators.<br><br>This is the second time I've had to say this.<br><br>Do people not read an e-mail before replying to it?<br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">-----</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">Mike Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Intelligent Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:'times new 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<richey.goldberg@gmail.com><br><b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "Harry McGregor" <hmcgregor@biggeeks.org><br><b>Cc: </b>nanog@nanog.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Thursday, June 3, 2021 7:41:27 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Muni broadband sucks (was: New minimum speed for US broadband connections)<br><br><style><!--
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--></style><div class="WordSection1"><p class="MsoNormal">The incumbent operators and cable companies want nothing to do with these networks because they already have their own. I’ve worked with several smaller regional providers and WISPs that would love to have access to muni networks but the local network muni either won’t allow the access or they price the access at a price point that it’s impossible to be competitive with the muni’s retail side of the house.<br><br>-richey<br><br></p><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in"><p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">NANOG <nanog-bounces+richey.goldberg=gmail.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net><br><b>Date: </b>Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 4:12 PM<br><b>To: </b>Harry McGregor <hmcgregor@biggeeks.org><br><b>Cc: </b><nanog@nanog.org><br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Muni broadband sucks (was: New minimum speed for US broadband connections)</span></p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal"> </p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black">The government entities that I've known of building middle or last-mile fiber infrastructure have reported that none of the incumbent operators wanted anything to do with it. Not during planning, construction, post-construction, etc.</span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><br><br>-----<br>Mike Hammett<br>Intelligent Computing Solutions<br>http://www.ics-il.com<br><br>Midwest-IX<br>http://www.midwest-ix.com</span></p></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p><div class="MsoNormal" align="center" style="text-align:center"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"><hr size="0" width="100%" align="center"></span></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">From: </span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">"Harry McGregor" <hmcgregor@biggeeks.org><br><b>To: </b>nanog@nanog.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 2, 2021 2:55:20 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Muni broadband sucks (was: New minimum speed for US broadband connections)</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Hi,<br><br>Glass and Copper (and aluminum) infrastructure is a natural monopoly, similar to water service.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">It was purely by chance IMHO that we ended up with Cable Co and Tel Co internet competing with each other in many locations in the US.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">That was aided by the following:</span></p><ul type="disc"><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Technology for TV over telephone wire really did not exist at the time</span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Telcos were not very interested in PayTV at the time</span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Technology for Telephone over Coax really did not exist at the time</span></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="color:black;mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica">Cable Co's were not very interested in Telephone service at the time</span></li></ul><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Basically they were viewed as two very different businesses, with very different physical plant needs. Now both of them are primarily fiber based, with Coax or Telephone Wire (in many cases you can not even call it twisted pair) as the very last interconnect segment.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">We can all agree with hind sight (and a lot of us at the time) that the Tel Co's made some very stupid decisions. Perfect example being installing remote DLC/SLC units when the demand for analog dial tone skyrocketed, along with more copper in the ground/on poles in neighborhoods. At first this blocked ADSL deployment until remote DSLAMs were installed, then it turns out most were NOT close enough to enable VDSL2 or g.FAST for the majority of customers serviced by them. They were both "in the way" and "too far away" at the same time. If instead of the DLC/SLC units the Tel Cos had instead favored (with the correct tariffs) moving any residential customer who requested a second POTS line to ISDN BRI, they would have saved all of the physical plant work, which has turned out to be a horrible investment.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">We learned a long time ago that water lines, sewer lines, and electric lines were natural monopolies, and should either have a municipal granted license, or should be run by the municipality.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">The next generation last mile will almost have to be a similar structure for Layer 1 and a form of Layer 2, with Layer 3 and above services being sold by anyone who wants to provide the service. This will collapse Cable Co, Tel Co, and independent ISPs onto the same physical infrastructure. This will work well for dense locations of course.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">Wireless ISPs, and LEO based ISPs will still of course have a major role to play for at least several decades if not more.<br><br>I also agree entirely that most consumers will "pay the ISP too much" for service they "don't need". I have worked with several people who were paying for Gigabit Cable Service, with 30Mbit upload, or in Spectrum territory, they had 400Mbit service with 20Mbit upload, and the "downgrade" was 200Mbit service with 10Mbit upload. Being as that was a single individual with very low upload needs beyond video meetings, I recommended he downgrade to the 200/10 service. In all cases, a proper WiFi network and wireless offloading has made far more difference vs upping the cable co speeds. My personal sweet spot right now is 100/20 business cable or 100/100 small business fiber (for the few spots that have GPON service in Tucson). The next tier of business cable is 200/20, and I find the extra 100Mbit download really does not change much. If it was 200/30 or 200/40, I would probably consider it.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">None of the realities of current "needs" and "wants" really are going to change the financial need to consolidate physical networks. Unfortunately instead of it being a Layer1/2 provider and L3+ competition, most Internet networks in new developments around here are being deployed as physical layer and service monopolies. The home builder will make an alliance with Cox, Comcast, or CenturyLink, and then the others will not build out physical plant in the community.</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">-Harry</span></p><p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black"> </span></p><div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Helvetica;color:black">On 6/2/21 11:50 AM, William Herrin wrote:</span></p></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pre><span style="color:black">On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 9:46 AM Andy Ringsmuth <a href="mailto:andy@andyring.com" target="_blank"><andy@andyring.com></a> wrote:</span></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pre><span style="color:black">Muni broadband sucks for several reasons but the most important one is:</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">Competition. Municipal broadband eliminates it. If it's not obvious</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">why, feel free to Google how competition and monopolization impact</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">product quality. It's a pretty universal trait.</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">If you were to structure muni broadband to enhance competition rather</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">than limit it, you might get a different result. For example, if</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">municipalities installed and leased fiber optic cables to every</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">structure but didn't provide any services on those cables, relying</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">instead on third parties directly billing the customer to do so, it</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">could work out as well as having municipalities pay for roads and</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">letting people buy their own cars and trucks to use on them.</span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style="color:black">In many municipalities, you can choose your electricity provider. And yet there are not multiple companies running power lines to every house.</span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style="color:black">Hi Andy,</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">Take a closer look at how that works. Your electricity vendor is also</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">the one who chooses which generating companies to buy from. You're</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">stuck with the municipal distribution network (just like you're stuck</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">with the municipal roads) but you have a choice in who you buy</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">electricity from and how you structure it. Want a flat rate? There's</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">someone who will sell you that. Want a discount for load shedding?</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">There's someone who will sell you that too. Carbon neutral? Someone</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">for that too. You can bet wrong and suffer for it (see: Texas winter</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">storms) but mostly you get better power service.</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">A comparable Internet setup would be where the municipality implements</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">a local network distribution service and then you buy from the</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">Internet provider of your choice. He bills you and passes the muni's</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">distribution portion onward. He makes his own arrangements for</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">upstream Internet or whatever services he elects to vend. Max speed,</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">flat rate, 95th percentile, IP addresses, etc. are controlled by the</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">competitive Internet provider who, if you're unhappy with him, could</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">be replaced.</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><pre><span style="color:black">I’m generally all for private enterprise. But when those private enterprises take public money, don’t do what they are supposed to do with it, squander it, and nothing changes, again and again, well, what’s that definition of insanity?</span></pre></blockquote><pre><span style="color:black">Yes it is, which is why I'm also against subsidizing large carriers to</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">build out monopoly networks.</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">Regards,</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">Bill Herrin</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"> </span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">--</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black">William Herrin</span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"><a href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank">bill@herrin.us</a></span></pre><pre><span style="color:black"><a href="https://bill.herrin.us/" target="_blank">https://bill.herrin.us/</a></span></pre></blockquote></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:black"> </span></p></div></div>
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