<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'>The government entities that I've known of building middle or last-mile fiber infrastructure have reported that none of the incumbent operators wanted anything to do with it. Not during planning, construction, post-construction, etc.<br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br><br>-----<br>Mike Hammett<br>Intelligent Computing Solutions<br>http://www.ics-il.com<br><br>Midwest-IX<br>http://www.midwest-ix.com<span name="x"></span><br></div><br><hr id="zwchr"><div style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Harry McGregor" <hmcgregor@biggeeks.org><br><b>To: </b>nanog@nanog.org<br><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, June 2, 2021 2:55:20 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Muni broadband sucks (was: New minimum speed for US broadband connections)<br><br>
<p>Hi,<br>
<br>
Glass and Copper (and aluminum) infrastructure is a natural
monopoly, similar to water service.<br>
</p>
<p>It was purely by chance IMHO that we ended up with Cable Co and
Tel Co internet competing with each other in many locations in the
US.</p>
<p>That was aided by the following:<br>
</p>
<ul>
<li>Technology for TV over telephone wire really did not exist at
the time</li>
<li>Telcos were not very interested in PayTV at the time</li>
<li>Technology for Telephone over Coax really did not exist at the
time<br>
</li>
<li>Cable Co's were not very interested in Telephone service at
the time</li>
</ul>
<p>Basically they were viewed as two very different businesses, with
very different physical plant needs. Now both of them are
primarily fiber based, with Coax or Telephone Wire (in many cases
you can not even call it twisted pair) as the very last
interconnect segment.<br>
</p>
<p>We can all agree with hind sight (and a lot of us at the time)
that the Tel Co's made some very stupid decisions. Perfect example
being installing remote DLC/SLC units when the demand for analog
dial tone skyrocketed, along with more copper in the ground/on
poles in neighborhoods. At first this blocked ADSL deployment
until remote DSLAMs were installed, then it turns out most were
NOT close enough to enable VDSL2 or g.FAST for the majority of
customers serviced by them. They were both "in the way" and "too
far away" at the same time. If instead of the DLC/SLC units the
Tel Cos had instead favored (with the correct tariffs) moving any
residential customer who requested a second POTS line to ISDN BRI,
they would have saved all of the physical plant work, which has
turned out to be a horrible investment.</p>
<p>We learned a long time ago that water lines, sewer lines, and
electric lines were natural monopolies, and should either have a
municipal granted license, or should be run by the municipality.</p>
<p>The next generation last mile will almost have to be a similar
structure for Layer 1 and a form of Layer 2, with Layer 3 and
above services being sold by anyone who wants to provide the
service. This will collapse Cable Co, Tel Co, and independent ISPs
onto the same physical infrastructure. This will work well for
dense locations of course.<br>
</p>
<p>Wireless ISPs, and LEO based ISPs will still of course have a
major role to play for at least several decades if not more.<br>
<br>
I also agree entirely that most consumers will "pay the ISP too
much" for service they "don't need". I have worked with several
people who were paying for Gigabit Cable Service, with 30Mbit
upload, or in Spectrum territory, they had 400Mbit service with
20Mbit upload, and the "downgrade" was 200Mbit service with 10Mbit
upload. Being as that was a single individual with very low upload
needs beyond video meetings, I recommended he downgrade to the
200/10 service. In all cases, a proper WiFi network and wireless
offloading has made far more difference vs upping the cable co
speeds. My personal sweet spot right now is 100/20 business cable
or 100/100 small business fiber (for the few spots that have GPON
service in Tucson). The next tier of business cable is 200/20, and
I find the extra 100Mbit download really does not change much. If
it was 200/30 or 200/40, I would probably consider it.</p>
<p>None of the realities of current "needs" and "wants" really are
going to change the financial need to consolidate physical
networks. Unfortunately instead of it being a Layer1/2 provider
and L3+ competition, most Internet networks in new developments
around here are being deployed as physical layer and service
monopolies. The home builder will make an alliance with Cox,
Comcast, or CenturyLink, and then the others will not build out
physical plant in the community.</p>
<p>-Harry</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/2/21 11:50 AM, William Herrin
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:CAP-guGXvxKW-AUK=gOMvKWqoCE-fCBfavOse8VvghAZ1GUuVjg@mail.gmail.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre">On Wed, Jun 2, 2021 at 9:46 AM Andy Ringsmuth <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:andy@andyring.com" target="_blank"><andy@andyring.com></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote>
<blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre">Muni broadband sucks for several reasons but the most important one is:
Competition. Municipal broadband eliminates it. If it's not obvious
why, feel free to Google how competition and monopolization impact
product quality. It's a pretty universal trait.
If you were to structure muni broadband to enhance competition rather
than limit it, you might get a different result. For example, if
municipalities installed and leased fiber optic cables to every
structure but didn't provide any services on those cables, relying
instead on third parties directly billing the customer to do so, it
could work out as well as having municipalities pay for roads and
letting people buy their own cars and trucks to use on them.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre">In many municipalities, you can choose your electricity provider. And yet there are not multiple companies running power lines to every house.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre">Hi Andy,
Take a closer look at how that works. Your electricity vendor is also
the one who chooses which generating companies to buy from. You're
stuck with the municipal distribution network (just like you're stuck
with the municipal roads) but you have a choice in who you buy
electricity from and how you structure it. Want a flat rate? There's
someone who will sell you that. Want a discount for load shedding?
There's someone who will sell you that too. Carbon neutral? Someone
for that too. You can bet wrong and suffer for it (see: Texas winter
storms) but mostly you get better power service.
A comparable Internet setup would be where the municipality implements
a local network distribution service and then you buy from the
Internet provider of your choice. He bills you and passes the muni's
distribution portion onward. He makes his own arrangements for
upstream Internet or whatever services he elects to vend. Max speed,
flat rate, 95th percentile, IP addresses, etc. are controlled by the
competitive Internet provider who, if you're unhappy with him, could
be replaced.
</pre>
<blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre">I’m generally all for private enterprise. But when those private enterprises take public money, don’t do what they are supposed to do with it, squander it, and nothing changes, again and again, well, what’s that definition of insanity?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre">Yes it is, which is why I'm also against subsidizing large carriers to
build out monopoly networks.
Regards,
Bill Herrin
--
William Herrin
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:bill@herrin.us" target="_blank">bill@herrin.us</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://bill.herrin.us/" target="_blank">https://bill.herrin.us/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
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