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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Um... there are long standing
techniques for programs to tune themselves & their algorithms
- with languages that are particularly good for treating code as
data (e.g., LISP - the grand daddy of AI languages - for whatever
definition of AI you want to use).<br>
<br>
And... a common complaint with current machine learning
algorithms, is that they often "learn" to make decisions that
can't be understood, after-the-fact. We already have examples of
"racist bots," and there are lots of legal issues regarding things
like liability for injuries caused by self-guiding cars.<br>
<br>
And then there are "spelling correctors" and digital "assistants"
- when has Siri EVER done only what you want "her" to do? <br>
<br>
The REAL problem is programs that blindly go off and do what you
think you told them to do, and get it woefully wrong. The more
leeway we allow our programs to adapt, or learn, or self-tune, or
whatever-you-want-to-call-it - the more trouble we're in. <br>
<br>
(The point being: We don't have to wait for "real" AI to see many
of the dangers that folks fictionalize about - we are already
seeing those dangers from mundane software - and it's only going
to get worse while people are looking elsewhere.)<br>
<br>
Miles Fidelman<br>
<br>
J. Hellenthal wrote:<br>
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<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:D54279DF-ACDF-4CFD-B458-B98E7F8C4B34@dataix.net">
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Let me know when a program will rewrite itself and add its own
features ... then we may have a problem... otherwise they only do
what you want them to do.<br>
<br>
<div dir="ltr">
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">-- </span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"> J.
Hellenthal</span></div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);"><br>
</span></div>
<span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">The fact
that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven
says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><br>
<blockquote type="cite">On Dec 10, 2020, at 12:41, Mel Beckman
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:mel@beckman.org"><mel@beckman.org></a> wrote:<br>
<br>
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charset=UTF-8">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0a3d01d6cf0b$e8603f60$b920be20$@netconsultings.com"
class="" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
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<div class="" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">
Jeez... some guys seem to take a joke literally -
while ignoring a real and present danger - which was
the point.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
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</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Miles,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">With all due respect, you didn’t present this as
a joke. You presented "AI self-healing systems gone wild” as
a genuine risk. Which it isn’t. In fact, AI fear mongering
is a seriously debilitating factor in technology policy,
where policymakers and pundits — who also don’t get “the
joke” — lobby for silly laws and make ridiculous
predictions, such as Elon Musks claim that, by 2025, “AI
will be where AI conscious and vastly smarter than humans.”</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">That’s the kind of ignorance that will waste
billions of dollars. No joke.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> -mel</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Dec 10, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Miles
Fidelman <<a
href="mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net" class=""
moz-do-not-send="true">mfidelman@meetinghouse.net</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Ahh.... invasive spambots, running on OpenStack ...
"the telephone bell is tolling... "<br class="">
<br class="">
Miles<br class="">
<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com"
style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration:
underline;" moz-do-not-send="true">adamv0025@netconsultings.com</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br
class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0a3d01d6cf0b$e8603f60$b920be20$@netconsultings.com"
style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page:
WordSection1;">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Automated
resource discovery + automated resource
allocation = recipe for disaster<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
That is literally how OpenStack works.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
For now, don’t worry about AI taking away your
freedom on its own, rather worry about how
people using it might…<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
adam<span style="color: windowtext;" class=""><o:p
class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class=""><o:p
class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="border-style: none none none solid;
border-left-color: blue; border-left-width:
1.5pt; padding: 0in 0in 0in 4pt;" class="">
<div class="">
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225);
border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in
0in;" class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<b class=""><span style="color:
windowtext;" class="" lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="color: windowtext;" class=""
lang="EN-US"><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>NANOG<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org"
style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);
text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org></a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b
class="">On Behalf Of<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Miles
Fidelman<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday,
December 10, 2020 2:44 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'NANOG'<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org"
style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114);
text-decoration: underline;"
moz-do-not-send="true"><nanog@nanog.org></a><br
class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
The Real AI Threat?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
<o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<a
href="mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com"
moz-do-not-send="true" style="color:
rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration:
underline;" class="">adamv0025@netconsultings.com</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt;
margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="">
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> Put them together, and the nightmare scenario is:<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> - machine learning algorithm detects need for more resources<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">All good so far</span><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> - machine learning algorithm makes use of vulnerability analysis library <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> to find other systems with resources to spare, and starts attaching<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> those resources<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">Right
so a company would built, trained and
fine-tuned an AI, or would have bought
such a product and implemented it as part
of its NMS/DDoS mitigation suite, to do
the above?<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">What
is the probability of anyone thinking that
to be a good idea?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">To
me that does sound like an AI based virus
rather than a tool one would want to
develop or buy from a third party and then
integrate into the day to day operations.</span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class=""> </span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">You
can’t take for instance alpha-0 or GPT-3
and make it do the above. You’d have to
train it to do so over millions of
examples and trials.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt;
font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="">
<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">Oh
and also these won’t “wake up” one day and
“think” to themselves oh I’m fed up with
Atari games I’m going to learn myself some
chess and then do some reading on wiki
about the chess rules.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p
class=""></o:p></div>
</blockquote>
<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size:
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"
class="">
<br class="">
Jeez... some guys seem to take a joke
literally - while ignoring a real and present
danger - which was the point.<br class="">
<br class="">
Meanwhile, yes, I think that a poorly
ENGINEERED DDoS mitigation suite might well
have failure modes that just keep eating up
resources until systems start crashing all
over the place. Heck, spinning off processes
until all available resources have been
exhausted has been a failure mode of systems
for years. Automated resource discovery +
automated resource allocation = recipe for
disaster. (No need for AIs eating the world.)<br
class="">
<br class="">
Miles<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">-- <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">In our lab, theory and practice are combined: <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
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font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows:
auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width:
0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown</pre>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown</pre>
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