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Jeez... some guys seem to take a joke literally - while ignoring a real and present danger - which was the point.<br class="">
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Miles,
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<div class="">With all due respect, you didn’t present this as a joke. You presented "AI self-healing systems gone wild” as a genuine risk. Which it isn’t. In fact, AI fear mongering is a seriously debilitating factor in technology policy, where policymakers
and pundits — who also don’t get “the joke” — lobby for silly laws and make ridiculous predictions, such as Elon Musks claim that, by 2025, “AI will be where AI conscious and vastly smarter than humans.”</div>
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<div class="">That’s the kind of ignorance that will waste billions of dollars. No joke.</div>
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<div class=""> -mel</div>
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<div class="">On Dec 10, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Miles Fidelman <<a href="mailto:mfidelman@meetinghouse.net" class="">mfidelman@meetinghouse.net</a>> wrote:</div>
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Ahh.... invasive spambots, running on OpenStack ... "the telephone bell is tolling... "<br class="">
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Miles<br class="">
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<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">adamv0025@netconsultings.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br class="">
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<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Automated resource discovery + automated resource allocation = recipe for disaster<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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That is literally how OpenStack works.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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For now, don’t worry about AI taking away your freedom on its own, rather worry about how people using it might…<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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adam<span style="color: windowtext;" class=""><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<b class=""><span lang="EN-US" style="color: windowtext;" class="">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="color: windowtext;" class=""><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>NANOG<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;"><nanog-bounces+adamv0025=netconsultings.com@nanog.org></a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b class="">On
Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Miles Fidelman<br class="">
<b class="">Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Thursday, December 10, 2020 2:44 PM<br class="">
<b class="">To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>'NANOG'<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;"><nanog@nanog.org></a><br class="">
<b class="">Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: The Real AI Threat?<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
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<a href="mailto:adamv0025@netconsultings.com" moz-do-not-send="true" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;" class="">adamv0025@netconsultings.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> Put them together, and the nightmare scenario is:<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> - machine learning algorithm detects need for more resources<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;" class="">All good so far</span><o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""> <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> - machine learning algorithm makes use of vulnerability analysis library <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> to find other systems with resources to spare, and starts attaching<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">> those resources<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
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<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">Right so a company would built, trained and fine-tuned an AI, or would have bought such a product and implemented it as part of its NMS/DDoS mitigation suite, to do the above?<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">What is the probability of anyone thinking that to be a good idea?</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">To me that does sound like an AI based virus rather than a tool one would want to develop or buy from a third party and then integrate into the day to day operations.</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">You can’t take for instance alpha-0 or GPT-3 and make it do the above. You’d have to train it to do so over millions of examples and trials.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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<span style="color: windowtext;" class="">Oh and also these won’t “wake up” one day and “think” to themselves oh I’m fed up with Atari games I’m going to learn myself some chess and then do some reading on wiki about the chess rules.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
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Jeez... some guys seem to take a joke literally - while ignoring a real and present danger - which was the point.<br class="">
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Meanwhile, yes, I think that a poorly ENGINEERED DDoS mitigation suite might well have failure modes that just keep eating up resources until systems start crashing all over the place. Heck, spinning off processes until all available resources have been exhausted
has been a failure mode of systems for years. Automated resource discovery + automated resource allocation = recipe for disaster. (No need for AIs eating the world.)<br class="">
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Miles<br class="">
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<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">-- <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">In our lab, theory and practice are combined: <o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
<pre style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';" class="">nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown<o:p class=""></o:p></pre>
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="margin: 0in 0in 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra
Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown</pre>
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