<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'>Matt, that ship sailed long before you or I thought about building networks. You can't change it at this point. Just embrace it.<br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">-----</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new 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noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><span name="x"></span><br></div><hr id="zwchr"><div style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net><br><b>To: </b>"Justin Wilson (Lists)" <lists@mtin.net>, "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net><br><b>Cc: </b>"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, September 28, 2020 7:44:49 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br><br>Because it's not universally supported, poorly thought through, and no <br>backwards compatibility.<br><br>Is there a better option? NO, not at this time. But it certainly could <br>have been better thought through how it was implemented.<br><br>On 9/28/20 8:37 AM, Justin Wilson (Lists) wrote:<br>> It is coming back to that, but you still have so much going on that you <br>> need the open ports. I don’t gt why people fight IPV6 so much.<br>> <br>> <br>> Justin Wilson<br>> j2sw@mtin.net <mailto:j2sw@mtin.net><br>> <br>> —<br>> https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109)<br>> https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog<br>> <br>>> On Sep 28, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <br>>> <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:<br>>><br>>> Why stray away from how PC games were 20 years ago where there was a <br>>> dedicated server and clients just spoke to servers?<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> -----<br>>> Mike Hammett<br>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>>> *From:*"Justin Wilson (Lists)" <lists@mtin.net <mailto:lists@mtin.net>><br>>> *To:*"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org <br>>> <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>><br>>> *Sent:*Monday, September 28, 2020 7:22:28 AM<br>>> *Subject:*Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br>>><br>>> There are many things going on with gaming that makes natted IPv4 an <br>>> issue when it comes to consoles and gaming in general. When you <br>>> break it down it makes sense.<br>>><br>>> -You have voice chat<br>>> -You are receiving data from servers about other people in the game<br>>> -You are sending data to servers about yourself<br>>> -If you are using certain features where you are “the host” then you <br>>> are serving content from your gaming console. This is not much <br>>> different than a customer running a web server. You can’t have more <br>>> than one customer running a port 80 web-server behind nat.<br>>> -Streaming to services like Twitch or YouTube<br>>><br>>> All of these take up standard, agreed upon ports. It’s really only <br>>> prevalent on gaming consoles because they are doing many functions. <br>>> Look at it another way. You have a customer doing the following.<br>>><br>>> -Making a VOIP call<br>>> -Streaming a movie<br>>> -Running a web server<br>>> -Running bittorrent on a single port<br>>> -Having a camera folks need to access from the outside world<br>>><br>>> This is why platforms like Xbox developed things like Teredo.<br>>><br>>> Justin Wilson<br>>> j2sw@mtin.net <mailto:j2sw@mtin.net><br>>><br>>> —<br>>> https://j2sw.com <https://j2sw.com/>- All things jsw (AS209109)<br>>> https://blog.j2sw.com <https://blog.j2sw.com/>- Podcast and Blog<br>>><br>>> On Sep 27, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Daniel Sterling<br>>> <sterling.daniel@gmail.com <mailto:sterling.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote:<br>>><br>>> Matt Hoppes raises an interesting question,<br>>><br>>> At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty<br>>> games I've played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm seems to work<br>>> rather well and should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically<br>>> turning on upnp makes this *worse*, because when their algorithm<br>>> probes to see what ports to use, upnp sends all traffic from the<br>>> "magical xbox port" to one box instead of letting NAT control the<br>>> ports. This does cause problems when multiple xboxes are behind<br>>> one NAT doing upnp. If upnp is on and both xboxes are fully<br>>> powered off and then turned on one at a time, things do work. But<br>>> when upnp is off everything works w/o having to do that.<br>>><br>>> There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do<br>>> horrible things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause problems for<br>>> any recent device / gaming system.<br>>><br>>> It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume<br>>> that's cuz they can't count on users having v6, so they have to<br>>> support v4, and it wouldn't be worth their while to have their<br>>> gaming host support dual-stack. just a guess there<br>>><br>>> -- Dan<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<br>>> <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:<br>>><br>>> Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work<br>>> behind one public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept<br>>> up in that realm.<br>>><br>>><br>>><br>>> -----<br>>> Mike Hammett<br>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>>> *From:*"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net<br>>> <mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>><br>>> *To:*"Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com<br>>> <mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>><br>>> *Cc:*"North American Network Operators' Group"<br>>> <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>><br>>> *Sent:*Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM<br>>> *Subject:*Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br>>><br>>> I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that<br>>> night not work - two devices trying to use UPNP behind the<br>>> same PAT device, an apartment complex or hotel WiFi system, etc.<br>>><br>>> On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl<br>>> <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com <mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>><br>>> wrote:<br>>><br>>> <br>>> This isn't rocket science.<br>>><br>>> Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on<br>>> upnp, then they will have open NAT to play their game and<br>>> host.<br>>><br>>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes<br>>> <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net<br>>> <mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>> wrote:<br>>><br>>> I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious<br>>> if anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid<br>>> when it comes to IPv4?<br>>><br>>> We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through<br>>> multiple layers of PAT and NAT. Why do we still have<br>>> gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their way<br>>> through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?<br>>><br>>> It seems like this should be a simple solution, why<br>>> are we still opening ports or having systems that<br>>> don’t work?<br>> <br></div><br></div></body></html>