<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; line-break: after-white-space;" class="">It is coming back to that, but you still have so much going on that you need the open ports. I don’t gt why people fight IPV6 so much. <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<div>Justin Wilson<br class=""><a href="mailto:j2sw@mtin.net" class="">j2sw@mtin.net</a><br class=""><br class="">—<br class="">https://j2sw.com - All things jsw (AS209109)<br class="">https://blog.j2sw.com - Podcast and Blog</div>
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<div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 28, 2020, at 8:34 AM, Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" class="">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div style="font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; text-decoration: none; font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;" class="">Why stray away from how PC games were 20 years ago where there was a dedicated server and clients just spoke to servers?<br class=""><br class=""><div class=""><span name="x" class=""></span><br style="font-family: "times new roman"; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; 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font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" class=""><b class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Justin Wilson (Lists)" <<a href="mailto:lists@mtin.net" class="">lists@mtin.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"North American Network Operators' Group" <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" class="">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Monday, September 28, 2020 7:22:28 AM<br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br class=""><br class=""><div class="">There are many things going on with gaming that makes natted IPv4 an issue when it comes to consoles and gaming in general. When you break it down it makes sense.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-You have voice chat</div><div class="">-You are receiving data from servers about other people in the game</div><div class="">-You are sending data to servers about yourself</div><div class="">-If you are using certain features where you are “the host” then you are serving content from your gaming console. This is not much different than a customer running a web server. You can’t have more than one customer running a port 80 web-server behind nat.</div><div class="">-Streaming to services like Twitch or YouTube</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">All of these take up standard, agreed upon ports. It’s really only prevalent on gaming consoles because they are doing many functions. Look at it another way. You have a customer doing the following.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-Making a VOIP call</div><div class="">-Streaming a movie</div><div class="">-Running a web server</div><div class="">-Running bittorrent on a single port</div><div class="">-Having a camera folks need to access from the outside world</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is why platforms like Xbox developed things like Teredo.</div><br class=""><div class=""><div class="">Justin Wilson<br class=""><a href="mailto:j2sw@mtin.net" class="" target="_blank">j2sw@mtin.net</a><br class=""><br class="">—<br class=""><a href="https://j2sw.com/" class="">https://j2sw.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>- All things jsw (AS209109)<br class=""><a href="https://blog.j2sw.com/" class="">https://blog.j2sw.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>- Podcast and Blog</div></div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote class=""><div class="">On Sep 27, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Daniel Sterling <<a href="mailto:sterling.daniel@gmail.com" class="" target="_blank">sterling.daniel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Matt Hoppes raises an interesting question,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty games I've played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm seems to work rather well and should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically turning on upnp makes this *worse*, because when their algorithm probes to see what ports to use, upnp sends all traffic from the "magical xbox port" to one box instead of letting NAT control the ports. This does cause problems when multiple xboxes are behind one NAT doing upnp. If upnp is on and both xboxes are fully powered off and then turned on one at a time, things do work. But when upnp is off everything works w/o having to do that.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do horrible things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause problems for any recent device / gaming system.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume that's cuz they can't count on users having v6, so they have to support v4, and it wouldn't be worth their while to have their gaming host support dual-stack. just a guess there</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">-- Dan</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" class="" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div class=""><div class="" style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept up in that realm.<br class=""><br class=""><div class=""><span class=""></span><br class="" style="font-family: "times new roman"; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><br class="" style="font-family: "times new roman"; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: "times new roman"; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline;">-----</span><br class="" style="font-family: "times new roman"; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px;"><span class="" style="font-family: "times new roman"; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-ligatures: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; float: none; display: inline;">Mike Hammett</span><br class="" style="font-family: "times new roman"; 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font-style: normal; text-decoration: none; font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"><b class="">From:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Matt Hoppes" <<a href="mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net" target="_blank" class="">mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net</a>><br class=""><b class="">To:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"Darin Steffl" <<a href="mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com" target="_blank" class="">darin.steffl@mnwifi.com</a>><br class=""><b class="">Cc:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>"North American Network Operators' Group" <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank" class="">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br class=""><b class="">Sent:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM<br class=""><b class="">Subject:<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br class=""><br class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment complex or hotel WiFi system, etc. </div><div dir="ltr" class=""><br class=""><blockquote class="">On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl <<a href="mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com" target="_blank" class="">darin.steffl@mnwifi.com</a>> wrote:<br class=""><br class=""></blockquote></div><blockquote class=""><div dir="ltr" class=""><div dir="auto" class="">This isn't rocket science.<div dir="auto" class=""><br class=""></div><div dir="auto" class="">Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will have open NAT to play their game and host. </div></div><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes <<a href="mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net" target="_blank" class="">mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net</a>> wrote:<br class=""></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4? <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class=""><br class="">We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?<br class=""><br class="">It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening ports or having systems that don’t work?</blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>