<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">What evidence is there that non-ISP-provided routers are prevalent? I don't know anyone that doesn't have an IT power-user intervening that has their own router. If something works without a separate router, most people aren't going to go out of their way to get one.</span></font><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">https://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/</span></font></div><div><font face="arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">It does seem like there's enough IPv6 use in the last mile networks where they don't need the IPv4 users anymore.<br></span></font><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br></div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">-----</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new 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noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><span name="x"></span><br></div><hr id="zwchr"><div style="color:#000;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt;"><b>From: </b>"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net><br><b>To: </b>"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net><br><b>Cc: </b>"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org>, "Daniel Sterling" <sterling.daniel@gmail.com><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, September 28, 2020 7:45:24 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br><br>Yes<br><br>No.<br><br>On 9/28/20 8:44 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:<br>> Are non-ISP-provided routers all that common anymore?<br>> <br>> Aren't there enough IPv6-enabled operators with critical mass of IPv6 <br>> deployments that IPv4-only networks can be treated like the second-tier <br>> citizens they are?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> -----<br>> Mike Hammett<br>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net><br>> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net>, "Daniel Sterling" <br>> <sterling.daniel@gmail.com><br>> *Cc: *"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org><br>> *Sent: *Monday, September 28, 2020 7:42:16 AM<br>> *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br>> <br>> Many... but not all... and just because the operator is doesn't mean the<br>> person you want to play with is. And just because the operator is<br>> doesn't mean the router you or the other person is using supports it.<br>> <br>> On 9/28/20 8:20 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:<br>> > Aren't most of the major operators using IPv6?<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > -----<br>> > Mike Hammett<br>> > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>> > <br>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>> > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>> > <br>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>> > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>> > <br>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > *From: *"Daniel Sterling" <sterling.daniel@gmail.com><br>> > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net><br>> > *Cc: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>, "North American<br>> > Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org><br>> > *Sent: *Sunday, September 27, 2020 8:33:56 PM<br>> > *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br>> ><br>> > Matt Hoppes raises an interesting question,<br>> ><br>> > At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty games<br>> > I've played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm seems to work rather well<br>> > and should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically turning on upnp<br>> > makes this *worse*, because when their algorithm probes to see what<br>> > ports to use, upnp sends all traffic from the "magical xbox port" to one<br>> > box instead of letting NAT control the ports. This does cause problems<br>> > when multiple xboxes are behind one NAT doing upnp. If upnp is on and<br>> > both xboxes are fully powered off and then turned on one at a time,<br>> > things do work. But when upnp is off everything works w/o having to <br>> do that.<br>> ><br>> > There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do horrible<br>> > things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause problems for any recent<br>> > device / gaming system.<br>> ><br>> > It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume that's<br>> > cuz they can't count on users having v6, so they have to support v4, and<br>> > it wouldn't be worth their while to have their gaming host support<br>> > dual-stack. just a guess there<br>> ><br>> > -- Dan<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<br>> > <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> > Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one<br>> > public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept up in that realm.<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> > -----<br>> > Mike Hammett<br>> > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>> > <br>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>> > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>> > <br>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>> > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>> > <br>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>> > <br>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>> > *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net<br>> > <mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>><br>> > *To: *"Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com<br>> > <mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>><br>> > *Cc: *"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org<br>> > <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>><br>> > *Sent: *Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM<br>> > *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br>> ><br>> > I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not<br>> > work - two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an<br>> > apartment complex or hotel WiFi system, etc.<br>> ><br>> > On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl<br>> > <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com <mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> > <br>> > This isn't rocket science.<br>> ><br>> > Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp,<br>> > then they will have open NAT to play their game and host.<br>> ><br>> > On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes<br>> > <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net<br>> > <mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>> wrote:<br>> ><br>> > I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if<br>> > anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it<br>> > comes to IPv4?<br>> ><br>> > We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through<br>> > multiple layers of PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming<br>> > consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their way through a PAT<br>> > system with STUN or other methods?<br>> ><br>> > It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we<br>> > still opening ports or having systems that don’t work?<br>> ><br>> ><br>> ><br>> <br></div><br></div></div></div></body></html>