<div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Delay, or “lag” in gamer parlance is everything. Have too much lag and you are dead without realizing you are dead. Lag frustrates gamers enormously and is probably one of the main drivers of NOC calls.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Lag is frequently abused by gamers as a crutch excuse for why they aren't as successful as their favorite Twitch streamer or their friends. Often times that extra 15ms of extra latency that their kid is screaming about because they got fragged means nothing when their monitor is only refreshing frames at 100ms. It has however given rise to generally useless products like the old Killer NICs, which only provided benefits to network performance if you were running a potato of a machine that was being run over by the game, in which case any other core component upgrade was a better choice. But they made a lot of money eventually being bought, so good for them.</div><div><br></div><div>Peer to peer games absolutely do suffer from latency issues, often either artificially induced on one side to abuse poor netcode, or essentially DoSing a target such that they cannot properly play. A quick example that comes to mind is the Destiny series that has suffered from this problem since day 1, but still made Bungie a lot of money while doing so. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 3:30 PM Carlos M. Martinez <<a href="mailto:carlosm3011@gmail.com">carlosm3011@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><u></u>




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<div><div><p dir="auto">Delay, or “lag” in gamer parlance is everything. Have too much lag and you are dead without realizing you are dead. Lag frustrates gamers enormously and is probably one of the main drivers of NOC calls.</p>
<p dir="auto">It seems to me that a purely client/server model will inherently have more lag issues than a peer-to-peer game.</p>
<p dir="auto">Not to mention cost… if you are the game publisher suddenly you’re faced with maintaining a global footprint of servers with all that implies.</p>
<p dir="auto">/Carlos</p>
<p dir="auto">On 28 Sep 2020, at 11:21, Tom Beecher wrote:</p>
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<blockquote><div dir="ltr"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:13.3333px">Why stray away from how PC games were 20 years ago where there was a dedicated server and clients just spoke to servers?</span></blockquote><div> </div><div>Much cheaper to just let all the game clients talk peer to peer than it is to maintain regional dedicated server infrastructure. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 8:35 AM Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Why stray away from how PC games were 20 years ago where there was a dedicated server and clients just spoke to servers?<br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">-----</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">Mike Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Intelligent Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Midwest Internet Exchange</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/mdwestix" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Brothers WISP</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png" style="border: 0pt none;"></a><span name="x"></span><br></div><hr id="gmail-m_856083962127586803gmail-m_-7911918252056108241zwchr"><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><b>From: </b>"Justin Wilson (Lists)" <<a href="mailto:lists@mtin.net" target="_blank">lists@mtin.net</a>><br><b>To: </b>"North American Network Operators' Group" <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Monday, September 28, 2020 7:22:28 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br><br><div>There are many things going on with gaming that makes natted IPv4 an issue when it comes to consoles and gaming in general.   When you break it down it makes sense.</div><div><br></div><div>-You have voice chat</div><div>-You are receiving data from servers about other people in the game</div><div>-You are sending data to servers about yourself</div><div>-If you are using certain features where you are “the host” then you are serving content from your gaming console.  This is not much different than a customer running a web server.  You can’t have more than one customer running a port 80 web-server behind nat.</div><div>-Streaming to services like Twitch or YouTube</div><div><br></div><div>All of these take up standard, agreed upon ports. It’s really only prevalent on gaming consoles because they are doing many functions.  Look at it another way.  You have a customer doing the following.</div><div><br></div><div>-Making a VOIP call</div><div>-Streaming a movie</div><div>-Running a web server</div><div>-Running bittorrent on a single port</div><div>-Having a camera folks need to access from the outside world</div><div><br></div><div>This is why platforms like Xbox developed things like Teredo.</div><br><div>
<div>Justin Wilson<br><a href="mailto:j2sw@mtin.net" target="_blank">j2sw@mtin.net</a><br><br>—<br><a href="https://j2sw.com" target="_blank">https://j2sw.com</a> - All things jsw (AS209109)<br><a href="https://blog.j2sw.com" target="_blank">https://blog.j2sw.com</a> - Podcast and Blog</div>
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<div><br><blockquote><div>On Sep 27, 2020, at 9:33 PM, Daniel Sterling <<a href="mailto:sterling.daniel@gmail.com" target="_blank">sterling.daniel@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="ltr">Matt Hoppes raises an interesting question,<div><br></div><div>At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty games I've played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm seems to work rather well and should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically turning on upnp makes this *worse*, because when their algorithm probes to see what ports to use, upnp sends all traffic from the "magical xbox port" to one box instead of letting NAT control the ports. This does cause problems when multiple xboxes are behind one NAT doing upnp. If upnp is on and both xboxes are fully powered off and then turned on one at a time, things do work. But when upnp is off everything works w/o having to do that.</div><div><br></div><div>There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do horrible things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause problems for any recent device / gaming system.</div><div><br></div><div>It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume that's cuz they can't count on users having v6, so they have to support v4, and it wouldn't be worth their while to have their gaming host support dual-stack. just a guess there</div><div><br></div><div>-- Dan</div><div><br></div><div><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett <<a href="mailto:nanog@ics-il.net" target="_blank">nanog@ics-il.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept up in that realm.<br><br><div><span></span><br style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">-----</span><br style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;float:none;display:inline">Mike Hammett</span><br style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Intelligent Computing Solutions</a><br style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSo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" style="font-family:"times new roman";font-size:12px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-variant-east-asian:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"><img style="border: 0pt none;"></a><span></span><br></div><hr id="gmail-m_856083962127586803gmail-m_-7911918252056108241gmail-m_8345897908164013756zwchr"><div style="font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;text-decoration:none;font-family:Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><b>From: </b>"Matt Hoppes" <<a href="mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net" target="_blank">mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net</a>><br><b>To: </b>"Darin Steffl" <<a href="mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com" target="_blank">darin.steffl@mnwifi.com</a>><br><b>Cc: </b>"North American Network Operators' Group" <<a href="mailto:nanog@nanog.org" target="_blank">nanog@nanog.org</a>><br><b>Sent: </b>Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br><br><div dir="ltr">I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not work - two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an apartment complex or hotel WiFi system, etc. </div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote>On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl <<a href="mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com" target="_blank">darin.steffl@mnwifi.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto">This isn't rocket science.<div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp, then they will have open NAT to play their game and host. </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes <<a href="mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net" target="_blank">mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it comes to IPv4?  <br>
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We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through multiple layers of PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their way through a PAT system with STUN or other methods?<br>
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It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we still opening ports or having systems that don’t work?</blockquote></div>
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