<html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; color: #000000'>Are non-ISP-provided routers all that common anymore?<div><br></div><div>Aren't there enough IPv6-enabled operators with critical mass of IPv6 deployments that IPv4-only networks can be treated like the second-tier citizens they are?<br><br><div><span name="x"></span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">-----</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><span style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;display:inline !important;float:none">Mike Hammett</span><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.ics-il.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Intelligent Computing Solutions</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><a href="https://twitter.com/ICSIL" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer"><img src="http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png" style="border:0pt none"></a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px"><a href="http://www.midwest-ix.com/" style="font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener noreferrer">Midwest Internet Exchange</a><br style="color:rgb( 0 , 0 , 0 );font-family:'times new roman';font-size:medium;font-style:normal;font-v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question,<br>> <br>> At the risk of this being off-topic, in the latest call of duty games <br>> I've played, their UDP-NAT-breaking algorithm seems to work rather well <br>> and should function fine even behind CGNAT. Ironically turning on upnp <br>> makes this *worse*, because when their algorithm probes to see what <br>> ports to use, upnp sends all traffic from the "magical xbox port" to one <br>> box instead of letting NAT control the ports. This does cause problems <br>> when multiple xboxes are behind one NAT doing upnp. If upnp is on and <br>> both xboxes are fully powered off and then turned on one at a time, <br>> things do work. But when upnp is off everything works w/o having to do that.<br>> <br>> There are many other games and many CPE NAT boxes that may do horrible <br>> things, but CGNAT by itself shouldn't cause problems for any recent <br>> device / gaming system.<br>> <br>> It is true that I've yet to see any FPS game use ipv6. I assume that's <br>> cuz they can't count on users having v6, so they have to support v4, and <br>> it wouldn't be worth their while to have their gaming host support <br>> dual-stack. just a guess there<br>> <br>> -- Dan<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:29 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net <br>> <mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote:<br>> <br>>     Actually, uPNP is the only way to get two devices to work behind one<br>>     public IP, at least with XBox 360s. I haven't kept up in that realm.<br>> <br>> <br>> <br>>     -----<br>>     Mike Hammett<br>>     Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/><br>>     <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL><https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb><https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions><https://twitter.com/ICSIL><br>>     Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/><br>>     <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix><https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange><https://twitter.com/mdwestix><br>>     The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/><br>>     <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp><https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg><br>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>>     *From: *"Matt Hoppes" <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net<br>>     <mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>><br>>     *To: *"Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com<br>>     <mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>><br>>     *Cc: *"North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog@nanog.org<br>>     <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>><br>>     *Sent: *Sunday, September 27, 2020 1:22:51 PM<br>>     *Subject: *Re: Gaming Consoles and IPv4<br>> <br>>     I understand that. But there’s a host of reasons why that night not<br>>     work - two devices trying to use UPNP behind the same PAT device, an<br>>     apartment complex or hotel WiFi system, etc.<br>> <br>>         On Sep 27, 2020, at 2:17 PM, Darin Steffl<br>>         <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com <mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>> wrote:<br>> <br>>         <br>>         This isn't rocket science.<br>> <br>>         Give each customer their own ipv4 IP address and turn on upnp,<br>>         then they will have open NAT to play their game and host.<br>> <br>>         On Sun, Sep 27, 2020, 12:50 PM Matt Hoppes<br>>         <mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net<br>>         <mailto:mattlists@rivervalleyinternet.net>> wrote:<br>> <br>>             I know the solution is always “IPv6”, but I’m curious if<br>>             anyone here knows why gaming consoles are so stupid when it<br>>             comes to IPv4?<br>> <br>>             We have VoIP and video systems that work fine through<br>>             multiple layers of PAT and NAT. Why do we still have gaming<br>>             consoles, in 2020, that can’t find their way through a PAT<br>>             system with STUN or other methods?<br>> <br>>             It seems like this should be a simple solution, why are we<br>>             still opening ports or having systems that don’t work?<br>> <br>> <br>> <br></div><br></div></div></body></html>