<html>
  <head>
    <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
  </head>
  <body>
    <br>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2/20/2020 10:41 AM, Dave Bell wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CACXVQYDozyNxEc+6fHfTy4exQQS+jmaKd=hx-j=oWGyy4TYp7w@mail.gmail.com">
      <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
      <div dir="ltr">
        <div dir="ltr"><br>
        </div>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div>
              <div class="gmail_quote">
                <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px
                  0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
                  rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
                </blockquote>
              </div>
            </div>
            <div dir="auto">Not indiscriminate. </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Indiscriminate - <span
              style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">done at random or
              without careful judgement.</span></div>
          <div class="gmail-vmod" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br
              class="gmail-Apple-interchange-newline">
          </div>
          <div class="gmail-vmod" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">Considering
            that Daniel is complaining that QUIC is broken, it certainly
            seems like some network operators are subjecting all UDP
            traffic on their network to the same policers. This feels
            pretty indiscriminate to me.</div>
          <div class="gmail-vmod" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
          </div>
          <div class="gmail-vmod" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif">I'm
            all for policing the known baddies, such as CHARGEN and NTP,
            but to discard UDP for fun is like taking a sledgehammer
            where a scalpel will do.</div>
          <div class="gmail-vmod" style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><span
              style="font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"> </span></div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex;border-left:1px solid
            rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
            <div dir="auto">Access networks need controls to maintain
              uptime against the non-stop barrage of ddos attacks. I am
              sure you have seen the headlines and mails on this list,
              ddos is hard to deal with. Access network will use
              whatever tools are required to keep the pagers quiet and
              customers happy. </div>
          </blockquote>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>I operate an access network that does not blanket police
            UDP. Google give me a dashboard that tell me 45% of
            requests  were served happily by QUIC, and I have no
            customers complaining about things not working, and our
            pagers are silent.</div>
        </div>
      </div>
    </blockquote>
    <br>
    <br>
    Dave, just wanted to say that I 100% agree with your comments. The
    bad actors are well known. I believe treating all UDP as bad is
    misguided. Like you, I assist in operation of several access
    networks that do not blanket police UDP and my pager remains
    relatively silent.<br>
    <br>
  </body>
</html>