<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On 21/01/2008, at 7:53 AM, Jeff Johnstone wrote:</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><blockquote type="cite"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">All of these discussions ignore the developments taking place in the consumer electronics marketplace. A quick glance at this years consumer electronics show in Vegas shows a HUGE variety of home, mobile and automobile consumer devices using IP services. These devices, AppleTV as an example, will require large bandwidth commitments. </span></blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>Sure. But it isn't an ISP's job to provide below-cost infrastructure</div><div>to subsidize the bandwidth requirements of Sony and Apple.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Pricing should be set without reference to the application developers.</div><div>If the application developers end up building applications which are</div><div>too expensive to use, then that's their loss. Nobody in the service-</div><div>provider industry should be going out of business because they </div><div>can't afford the infrastructure needed to give their AppleTV users</div><div>20 Gbit/sec ports when Cupertino comes out with HHHHHD Video</div><div>in a few years time.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite">Add this to IP based telephony and you can't just "shut off" a users service after they reach a cap, you would be removing their emergency services access.</blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>Why can't you? We do it all the time. You shape to 64kbps, which is</div><div>more than enough bandwidth to run a SIP session with a low-end</div><div>CODEC. Phone calls still work, hardly anything else does. (performance</div><div>on a Virtual-Access interface with a rate-limit on it is way worse than </div><div>performance on a BRI interface without a rate-limit because rate-limits</div><div>lead to tail-drops, which spooks TCP very, very badly. So 64kbps is</div><div>actually worse than it sounds for TCP applications, but constant bitrate</div><div>CODECs deal with it just fine)</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><blockquote type="cite">Hopefully we won't be seeing "basic" internet services of a couple of gig per month and "channel" offerings of AppleTV, all you can eat as "tier 2 plan", or "other service" as "teir 3 plan". </blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>You guys seem to be behaving as if this stuff hasn't happened before.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>No, you won't see "basic" internet on a couple of gig per month. You'll</div><div>see "basic" internet on 40 - 60 Gbytes per month, which is more than</div><div>most mortals use in any given 30 day period (like, ferchrissakes, who</div><div>needs 2 Gbytes per day, day in day out? Grandma certainly doesn't </div><div>use that much when she's checking her email...)</div><div><br><blockquote type="cite">Alongside this discussion is AT&T's direction of content censorship and its impact on end users.</blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>No, the two issues are completely orthogonal.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>You're supposed to be a network operator, stop thinking like an end</div><div>user.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite">Our help desks are going to take a huge hit in the future as we start trying to troubleshoot issues where the general rule of "I'll pass any packet I get" becomes "I will pass any packet I am payed for and have dissected for content, and after I have determined that the rest of the stream won't push my end user over his network cap this month". </blockquote><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div>No, metering means the network neutrality debate undergoes gravitational</div><div>collapse, and caring about what's inside a packet turns into a total waste</div><div>of time.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>You don't need to care about whether a packet has been paid for because</div><div>you know that every packet has been paid for. That's what metering </div><div>delivers.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Why do you think the DPI vendors haven't had much traction outside of </div><div>Europe and North America? It isn't because the rest of the world can't</div><div>afford them. It's because Europe and North America are where all the</div><div>"unlimited" access services are sold, so they're the places where DPI is</div><div>actually needed. Would you need to spend millions with Ellacoya or </div><div>Sandvine if your customers imposed their own self-created backpressure</div><div>against P2P usage?</div><div><br></div><div>Again: Some of the significant economies on the Internet have done this</div><div>already. The TWC paper isn't trailblazing, and every issue you can think</div><div>of to explain why it'll be horrible and won't work has already been demolished</div><div>by real-life day-to-day business in other countries. You guys who are</div><div>behaving as if the sky will fall are going to have to explain why the Internet</div><div>industry hasn't ceased to function in .au and .nz before you get on to</div><div>explaining why its collapse would be inevitable in the USA.</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div> - mark</div><div><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div apple-content-edited="true"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">--</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">Mark Newton Email: <a href="mailto:newton@internode.com.au">newton@internode.com.au</a> (W)</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">Network Engineer Email: <a href="mailto:newton@atdot.dotat.org">newton@atdot.dotat.org</a> (H)</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82282999</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; ">"Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223</span></font></font></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#000000"><font class="Apple-style-span" face="'Andale Mono'"><font class="Apple-style-span" size="1"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 9px; "><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></span></font></font></font></div></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"> </div><br></body></html>