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<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dear All,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thank you very much for numerous and quick replies
for my email. I must say that nanog list is really highly responsive. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I needed some time to digest your comments and try
some new ideas. I share the preliminary results with you now, begging for
further comments.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>The problem was (and still is) to find a good
heuristic to distinguish between commercial (COM) and educational/research/academic
(EDU) ASes. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>*<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>EDU_Abilene</span></b>*<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>My first approach (see my original email) was to
extract a list of all destinations announced by <st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place
 w:st="on">Abilene</st1:place></st1:City>. (The assumption is that <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Abilene</st1:City></st1:place> generally does not
announce commercial prefixes.) This results in a list, call it “EDU_Abilene”,
of 1333 ASes. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>*<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>EDU_description</span></b>*<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Some of you suggested looking at the names and
descriptions of ASes. I used the AS list available at: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><a
href="http://www.multicasttech.com/status/asn_expand.txt"><font color=black><span
style='color:windowtext'>http://www.multicasttech.com/status/asn_expand.txt</span></font></a>
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>and searched the last column
("Organization") for the following strings:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>"Universit|Univerz|Universida|research|education|science|scientif|academic|college|institut|laborator|school|ecole|<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>edu|R&D|library|academy|Etudes"<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>This approach finds 1796 "educational"
ASes, call this set “EDU_description”.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Of course, these two lists overlap, but less than I
expected. In particular:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>len(EDU_Abilene)=1333<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>len(EDU_description)=1796<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>union(EDU_Abilene, EDU_description)=2269<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>intersection(EDU_Abilene, EDU_description)=860<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>For many reasons, these lists are far from being very
precise. For instance EDU_Abilene contains AS 7132 (AT&T) and AS 8075 (Microsoft).
Therefore I need further data sets or filtering methodology. This raises some
questions:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>1) What other EDU networks (preferably with BGP
tables available in the web) can I take as examples of ASes that (generally) do
not announce commercial prefixes? Based on them I could construct lists similar
in spirit to EDU_Abilene. I guess, the more the better. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>2) Do you know of other lists, similar to <a
href="http://www.multicasttech.com/status/asn_expand.txt"><font color=black><span
style='color:windowtext'>http://www.multicasttech.com/status/asn_expand.txt</span></font></a>
 ? Maybe a longer description or a www related to an AS would help the
method I use to create EDU_description. Do you think the strings I use in my
search are appropriate?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>*AS relationships*<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Another approach is to exploit the AS relationships. Most
of you agree that usually EDU ASes are not providers for COM customers. This
suggests a way to detect false positives in EDU_Abilene and EDU_description (or
in their union). For every EDU node check how many COM customers it has, i.e., EDU
provider --- COM customer relationship. I used the AS graphs with inferred relationships
provided by CAIDA (<a href="http://as-rank.caida.org/data/2006/"><font
color=black><span style='color:windowtext'>http://as-rank.caida.org/data/2006/</span></font></a>).
This method works well to find good candidates for false positive, but they
should not be blindly accepted. For instance AS 7132 (AT&T) has the highest
number of COM customers (615) and should obviously belong to COM (it is a
member of EDU_Abilene). In contrast, a big component of the EDU backbone, AS
11537 (<st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Abilene</st1:place></st1:City>)
has 66 COM customers! In general there are about 50 EDU nodes with more than 10
COM customers each. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>3) What other “automatic” or “manual”
approaches would you suggest? Or improvements of the ones just described? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I will appreciate even the briefest comments and
suggestions,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Maciej Kurant<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 color=navy face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<div>

<div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><font size=3
face="Times New Roman"><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:12.0pt'>

<hr size=2 width="100%" align=center tabindex=-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=MsoNormal><b><font size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font
size=2 face=Tahoma><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
Maciej Kurant [mailto:maciej.kurant@epfl.ch] <br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> mercredi, 15. novembre 2006
18:46<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> '<st1:PersonName w:st="on">nanog@merit.edu</st1:PersonName>'<br>
<b><span style='font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> How to get a list of
research and academic ISP ?</span></font><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>I am a PhD student at EPFL, <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region
 w:st="on">Switzerland</st1:country-region></st1:place>. My recent research
interest is in large scale differences between the commercial and academic parts
of the Internet. <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Of course, in order to perform this kind of studies I
need a way to distinguish between these two worlds. I’ve learnt that <st1:place
w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Abilene</st1:City></st1:place> does not provide
commercial connectivity. This means that BGP prefixes and AS paths announced by
Abilene BGP routers should lead only to research and academic destinations. I
have extracted (from the BGP tables at
http://abilene.internet2.edu/observatory) a list of all such destinations and
obtained 1333 ASes (for data form July 2006). The number looks reasonable, but
I would like to be sure that I am not making a mistake. Therefore I would be
grateful if you could answer the following questions: <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>1)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>       </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Is
this approach to obtain a list of research and academic ISPs correct?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>2)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>       </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Do
you maybe know of such lists compiled before? <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>3)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>       </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>If
I keep not only the destination ASes, but also all ASes on the AS paths towards
these destination I obtain a list of about 1400 ASes. How should I understand
this? Does it mean that some research and academic destinations are reachable
from <st1:place w:st="on"><st1:City w:st="on">Abilene</st1:City></st1:place>
only by traversing the commercial Internet?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:36.0pt;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><span
style='mso-list:Ignore'>4)<font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><span
style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'>       </span></font></span></span></font><![endif]><font
size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Of
course, research and academic ASes are often well connected to the commercial
Internet. My guess is that in most cases their peering relationship is
“customer-provider”, where commercial ASes are providers. Is it
possible that an academic AS is a provider for some commercial ASes? If so,
does it happen often?<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Thank you in advance for your comments.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span lang=EN-GB style='font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial'>Maciej Kurant<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face=Arial><span style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Arial'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=PL
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=============================================<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=PL
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=PL
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>EPFL IC ISC <st1:PersonName
w:st="on">LCA3</st1:PersonName><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=PL
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Maciej Kurant<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=DE-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>PhD Student<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=DE-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>CH-1015 Lausanne,
Switzerland<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=DE-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=DE-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>web site:  </span></font><font
size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=FR-CH style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Courier New"'><a href="http://lcawww.epfl.ch/kurant"><span lang=DE-CH>http://lcawww.epfl.ch/kurant</span></a></span></font><span
lang=DE-CH><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=DE-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoAutoSig><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span lang=FR-CH
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>=============================================</span></font><span
lang=FR-CH><o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=MsoNormal><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><span style='font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p> </o:p></span></font></p>

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