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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Without getting into the entire conceptual argument about
capitalism in general and why some semi-sane economic decisions are
made... What is it that makes you think that boycotting a company
(particularly one the size or deployment of Cisco and/or Juniper) would make
someone say "oh, I'm sorry, it looks like we made a bad decision in saving some
money"???</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Now, let's also go back and look at the original
post. Cisco is putting in what? $32 million. in the grand
scheme of things, just what kind of impact do you really believe this is going
to have? Committing to training people in another country is not a
commitment to abandon jobs elsewhere. Look at the economics of how much
the Chinese market is growing. Or should we handle all of that extra work
in supporting that country's expanding market with jobs already here in the US
(or wherever).</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Oh wait, don't many US folks already complain about the
down-, right-, left-, some-direction-sizing that's going on and how overworked
they may be? </FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>There are SOME areas where the outsourcing may hit a chord,
and everyone is always welcome to their soapbox. I just don't think it
really applies to the particulars that were announced here, and certainly not to
this level. As ANY good job-seeker should realize, it's all about
economics. So make yourself a more marketable or valuable person than
others. Whether through certifications (not starting this war) or
experiences or the ability to demonstrate business prowess along with technical
skills...</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>But where do we draw the line? Almost ANY electronics
company uses non-American parts. Many clothing manufacturers use off-shore
assembly. Everyone is entitled to desire purchasing locally-produced goods
only, but at the same time it's hard to justify complaining about how much more
expensive some of those items may be!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>It's everywhere.... As long as there are options,
it'll never change. We see the shift now because of the ease of travel and
shipping and ubiquitous communications (oh damn, that means were in an industry
that may have helped this "evil" trend). It's economic destiny, which
means to fight it we need to make the overall economic choice one that leans our
direction (whever that "our" may be). But simply complaining about it is
the easy part. Figuring out the "why" and then working to make the
decision better to go a different direction is harder. Business decisions,
like routes, have metrics. Figure out what they are and change them if
desired. but it's not nearly as simple!</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2>Scott</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN class=890193415-24092004><FONT face=Arial
color=#0000ff size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV><BR>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> owner-nanog@merit.edu
[mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Joseph<BR><B>Sent:</B>
Friday, September 24, 2004 7:19 AM<BR><B>To:</B> erik@we-dare.net<BR><B>Cc:</B>
nanog@nanog.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Cisco moves even more to
china.<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in">Hello Erik,</P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in"> Although I agree with you on many points I
think its time people stop complaining and take action. My point was not to idly
complain about the outsourcing trend and claim that protectionism is the answer
but, to ask if there is a better way to deal with the long term trend for ALL of
us. Boycotting is just one way to send a message rather than simply complaining.
</P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in"><BR></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in"> Your perception of Americans I think is
very skewed by the media. You obviously did not read my post and wanted take a
cheap shot. Many Americans like myself have always been fighting for equity,
fairness and democracy from the beginning in all our activities. Try not to
equate a people with what you read and hear in the media and realize they have
much more diversity of opinion than is portrayed therein. I argue we BOTH
American and international workers (that means you) need to change the system so
that we are all treated fairly. I don't think this is an off the wall ideal. But
to each his own. </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in"><BR></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in"> Hmmm. I had no idea there were only 2
networking companies, 1 database and 1 OS. =) With the rich competitive nature
of the market I will continue to support companies which conform to a baseline
of ethical business practice for all workers worldwide. </P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in"></P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in">With deepest respect,</P>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0in">J</P><BR><BR><B><I>Erik Haagsman
<erik@we-dare.net></I></B> wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">On
Fri, 2004-09-24 at 03:53, Joseph wrote:<BR>> Its time for all American Tech
workers to stand up and let our voices<BR>> be heard.<BR><BR>Perhaps it's
time instead to make sure you're good at what you do and<BR>try to be on the
forefront of tech, rather than whining about how all<BR>those bad people from
abroad are stealing your job. It's largely our own<BR>fault labour pricing in
large outsourcing countries like India are so<BR>low, and now it's coming back
to bite some of us.<BR><BR>> We as world citizens need to come to grips
with the fact that we must<BR>> compete with workers internationally but we
should be doing so on FAIR<BR>> playing field. <BR><BR>Strangely people
only start calling for a level, fair playing field when<BR>they feel
something's threatening their own little piece of the cake. If<BR>most
companies and governments we're happy to work for wouldn't have<BR>been
undermining other people's economies for ages, we wouldn't have<BR>this
problem and we would have a more or less fair playing field. But<BR>now
practices that we still are making money of is making our
companies<BR>stronger, but our workforce weaker, so in the long term probably
our<BR>overall economy will be weaker. Anyone else see the irony
here..?<BR><BR>> Don't Support Outsourcing, Don't buy from companies that
outsource US<BR>> jobs.<BR><BR>Hmm...let me see now, no Juniper, no Cisco,
no Oracle, no Microsoft,<BR>basically not a single vendor left...ah yes, we
should just stop working<BR>completely and dismantle the Internet, that might
just do the trick.<BR><BR>Cheers,<BR><BR>Erik<BR><BR>-- <BR>---<BR>Erik
Haagsman<BR>Network Architect<BR>We Dare BV<BR>tel: +31(0)10
7507008<BR>fax:+31(0)10
7507005<BR>http://www.we-dare.nl<BR><BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
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