Long hops on international paths

Tue Jan 18 15:14:22 UTC 2022

Paul-

You said: "... would decide to configure MPLS paths between Chicago and distant international locations ..."

AS3128 runs MPLS and it's probable someone might correct me here, but for a IGP backbone area I think it's common for there to be a full mesh of LSPs via either LDP, RSVP, SR etc.  AS3128 is a small regional and we operate in that way across 60+ nodes.  I don't know if it's common for someone with a global footprint like 1299 to have a contiguous global MPLS backbone, but the point of my reply was to say it's not impossible to think 1299 has a global MPLS mesh between major POPs.

-Michael

> -----Original Message-----
> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+michael.hare=wisc.edu at nanog.org> On
> Behalf Of PAUL R BARFORD
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2022 8:16 AM
> To: Saku Ytti <saku at ytti.fi>
> Cc: Esteban Carisimo <esteban.carisimo at northwestern.edu>;
> nanog at nanog.org; Fabian E. Bustamante <fabianb at cs.northwestern.edu>
> Subject: Re: Long hops on international paths
> 
> Hello Saku,
> 
> Thank you for the summary.  We're clear about the fact that what we're
> seeing are MLPS paths - that was not in question.  What we are not clear
> about and the reason for the post is why the provider - zayo.telia in this case
> - would decide to configure MPLS paths between Chicago and distant
> international locations.  We assumed we would see hops in traceroute
> between Chicago and coastal locations and then hops that transited
> submarine infrastructure followed by hops to large population centers.
> 
> Regards, PB
> ________________________________
> 
> From: Saku Ytti <saku at ytti.fi>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2022 12:50 AM
> To: PAUL R BARFORD <pb at cs.wisc.edu>
> Cc: Lukas Tribus <lukas at ltri.eu>; Esteban Carisimo
> <esteban.carisimo at northwestern.edu>; nanog at nanog.org
> <nanog at nanog.org>; Fabian E. Bustamante
> <fabianb at cs.northwestern.edu>
> Subject: Re: Long hops on international paths
> 
> 1) all (meaning all hitting the zayo.telia) your traceroutes originate
> from University in Chicago
> 2) the zayo.telia device is physically close to the university
> 3) we should expect physically close-by backbone device to be present
> in disproportionate amount of traceroutes
> 4) almost certainly zayo.telia is imposing the MPLS label of TTL 255,
> _NOT_ copying IP TTL, therefore until MPLS label is popped, TTL is not
> expiring. I.e. you are seeing ingressPE and egress PE ot Telia, you
> are not seeing any P routers.
> 
> This is not esoteric knowledge, but a fairly basic Internet concept. I
> am worried you are missing too much context to produce actionable
> output from your work. It might be interesting to see your curriculum,
> why this confusion arose, why it seems logical that the reason must be
> that almost all waves are terminated there, because it would not seem
> logical for people practising in the field who have even cursory
> understanding, this implies problems in the curriculum.
> 
> On Tue, 18 Jan 2022 at 07:21, PAUL R BARFORD <pb at cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
> >
> > Please find the examples for the case of Telia below.
> >
> > FROM jfk-us (jfk-us.team-probing.c008820.20201002.warts.gz)
> >
> >
> >
> > traceroute from 216.66.30.102 (Ark probe hosted in New York City, NY, US.
> No AS info found) to 223.114.235.32 (MAXMIXD: Turpan, CN)
> >
> > 1  216.66.30.101  0.365 ms
> >
> > 2  62.115.49.173  3.182 ms
> >
> > 3  *
> >
> > 4  62.115.137.59  17.453 ms [x] (chi-b23-link.ip.twelve99.net., CAIDA-
> GEOLOC -> Chicago, IL, US)
> >
> > 5  62.115.117.48  59.921 ms [x] (sea-b2-link.ip.twelve99.net., RIPE-IPMAP ->
> Seattle, WA, US)
> >
> > 6  62.115.171.221  69.993 ms
> >
> > 7  223.120.6.53  69.378 ms
> >
> > 8  223.120.12.34  226.225 ms
> >
> > 9  221.183.55.110  237.475 ms
> >
> > 10  221.183.25.201  238.697 ms
> >
> > 11  221.176.16.213  242.296 ms
> >
> > 12  221.183.36.62  352.695 ms
> >
> > 13  221.183.39.2  300.166 ms
> >
> > 14  117.191.8.118  316.270 ms
> >
> > 15  *
> >
> > 16  *
> >
> > 17  *
> >
> > 18  *
> >
> > 19  *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > FROM ord-us (ord-us.team-probing.c008820.20201002.warts.gz)
> >
> >
> >
> > traceroute from 140.192.218.138 (Ark probe hosted in Chicago, IL, US at
> Depaul University-AS20120) to 109.25.215.237 (237.215.25.109.rev.sfr.net.,
> MAXMIXD: La Crau, FR)
> >
> > 1  140.192.218.129  0.795 ms
> >
> > 2  140.192.9.124  0.603 ms
> >
> > 3  64.124.44.158  1.099 ms
> >
> > 4  64.125.31.172  3.047 ms
> >
> > 5  *
> >
> > 6  64.125.15.65  1.895 ms      [x] (zayo.telia.ter1.ord7.us.zip.zayo.com.,
> CAIDA-GEOLOC -> Chicago, IL, US)
> >
> > 7  62.115.118.59  99.242 ms    [x] (prs-b3-link.ip.twelve99.net., CAIDA-
> GEOLOC -> Paris, FR)
> >
> > 8  62.115.154.23  105.214 ms
> >
> > 9  77.136.10.6  119.021 ms
> >
> > 10  77.136.10.6  118.830 ms
> >
> > 11  80.118.89.202  118.690 ms
> >
> > 12  80.118.89.234  118.986 ms
> >
> > 13  109.24.108.66  119.159 ms
> >
> > 14  109.25.215.237  126.085 ms
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > traceroute from 140.192.218.138 (Ark probe hosted in Chicago, IL, US at
> Depaul University-AS20120) to 84.249.89.93 (dsl-tkubng12-54f959-
> 93.dhcp.inet.fi., MAXMIXD: Turku, FI)
> >
> > 1  140.192.218.129  0.243 ms
> >
> > 2  140.192.9.124  0.326 ms
> >
> > 3  64.124.44.158  0.600 ms
> >
> > 4  *
> >
> > 5  *
> >
> > 6  64.125.15.65  1.792 ms      [x] (zayo.telia.ter1.ord7.us.zip.zayo.com.,
> CAIDA-GEOLOC -> Chicago, IL, US)
> >
> > 7  62.115.123.27  121.199 ms   [x] (hls-b4-link.ip.twelve99.net., CAIDA-
> GEOLOC -> Helsinki, FI)
> >
> > 8  *
> >
> > 9  141.208.193.190  127.723 ms
> >
> > 10  84.249.89.93  139.051 ms
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > traceroute from 140.192.218.138 (Ark probe hosted in Chicago, IL, US) to
> 193.28.231.50 (MAXMIXD: None, HU)
> >
> > 1  140.192.218.129  0.240 ms
> >
> > 2  140.192.9.124  0.333 ms
> >
> > 3  64.124.44.158  0.648 ms
> >
> > 4  *
> >
> > 5  64.125.25.75  0.752 ms
> >
> > 6  64.125.15.65  1.877 ms      [x] (zayo.telia.ter1.ord7.us.zip.zayo.com.,
> CAIDA-GEOLOC -> Chicago, IL, US)
> >
> > 7  62.115.119.39  123.952 ms   [x] (bpt-b2-link.ip.twelve99.net., **I suspect
> it is in Budapest, HU**)
> >
> > 8  62.115.39.122  117.171 ms
> >
> > 9  88.151.96.148  117.202 ms
> >
> > 10  88.151.96.213  124.787 ms
> >
> > 11  *
> >
> > 12  *
> >
> > 13  *
> >
> > 14  *
> >
> > 15  *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > traceroute from 140.192.218.138 (Ark probe hosted in Chicago, IL, US at
> Depaul University-AS20120) to 152.195.4.11 (MAXMIXD: Los Angeles, CA, US)
> >
> > 1  140.192.218.129  0.224 ms
> >
> > 2  140.192.9.124  0.545 ms
> >
> > 3  64.124.44.158  0.640 ms
> >
> > 4  *
> >
> > 5  *
> >
> > 6  64.125.15.65  1.786 ms      [x] (zayo.telia.ter1.ord7.us.zip.zayo.com.,
> CAIDA-GEOLOC -> Chicago, IL, US)
> >
> > 7  62.115.118.247  54.597 ms   [x] (las-b22-link.ip.twelve99.net., CAIDA-
> GEOLOC -> Los Angeles, CA, US)
> >
> > 8  62.115.11.129  55.979 ms
> >
> > 9  *
> >
> > 10  *
> >
> > 11  *
> >
> > 12  *
> >
> > 13  *
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > traceroute from 140.192.218.138 (Ark probe hosted in Chicago, IL, US at
> Depaul University-AS20120) to 47.31.143.217 (MAXMIXD: Delhi, IN)
> >
> > 1  140.192.218.129  2.277 ms
> >
> > 2  140.192.9.124  0.449 ms
> >
> > 3  64.124.44.158  0.576 ms
> >
> > 4  *
> >
> > 5  *
> >
> > 6  64.125.15.65  1.814 ms      [x] (zayo.telia.ter1.ord7.us.zip.zayo.com.,
> CAIDA-GEOLOC -> Chicago, IL, US)
> >
> > 7  62.115.114.41  210.056 ms   [x] (snge-b5-link.ip.twelve99.net.,)
> >
> > 8  62.115.177.11  200.840 ms
> >
> >  9  103.198.140.16  233.636 ms
> >
> > 10  103.198.140.16  232.871 ms
> >
> > 11  103.198.140.171  232.648 ms
> >
> > 12  *
> >
> > 13  *
> >
> > 14  *
> >
> > 15  *
> >
> > 16  *
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Lukas Tribus <lukas at ltri.eu>
> > Sent: Monday, January 17, 2022 1:52 PM
> > To: PAUL R BARFORD <pb at cs.wisc.edu>
> > Cc: Nick Hilliard <nick at foobar.org>; nanog at nanog.org
> <nanog at nanog.org>; Esteban Carisimo
> <esteban.carisimo at northwestern.edu>; Fabian E. Bustamante
> <fabianb at cs.northwestern.edu>
> > Subject: Re: Long hops on international paths
> >
> > On Mon, 17 Jan 2022 at 20:00, PAUL R BARFORD <pb at cs.wisc.edu> wrote:
> > > What we're curious about is why we're seeing a concentration of hops at
> a small number of routers that appear on international paths.
> >
> > I suggest you share a few actual examples (IP addresses, traceroutes).
> >
> > I don't think discussing your conclusion based on data we don't have
> > makes sense.
> >
> >
> > Lukas
> 
> 
> 
> --
>   ++ytti