Authoritative Resources for Public DNS Pinging

Thu Feb 10 00:44:47 UTC 2022

On Wed, Feb 09, 2022 at 11:21:26PM +0000, Mark Delany wrote:
> On 09Feb22, Joe Greco allegedly wrote:
> 
> > So what people really want is to be able to "ping internet" and so far
> > the easiest thing people have been able to find is "ping 8.8.8.8" or
> > some other easily remembered thing.
> 
> Yes, I think "ping internet" is the most accurate description thus far. Or perhaps "reach
> internet".
> 
> > Does this mean that perhaps we should seriously consider having some
> > TLD being named "internet"
> 
> Meaning you need to have a functioning DNS resolver first? I'm sure you see the problem
> with that clouding the results of a diagnostic test.

Perhaps.  As I noted,

	The problem with this is that someone will try to make what
	could be a relatively simple thing complicated

and you're already implying the first step down that road, which is
trying to do something more than a simple pass/fail test.

> > service providers register appropriate upstream targets for their 
> > customers, and then maybe also allow for some form of registration such
> > that if I wanted to provide a remote ping target for AS14536, I could
> > somehow register "as14536.internet" or "solnet.internet"?
> 
> Possibly. You'd want to be crystal clear on the use cases. As a starting point, maybe:
> 
> 1. Do packets leave my network?
> 2. Do packets leave my ISP's network?
> 3. Mainly for IOT - is the internet reachable?
> 
> Because of 2 and 3. I don't think creative solutions such as ISPs any-casting some
> memorable IP or name will do the trick. And because of 1. anything relying on DNS
> resolution is probably a non-starter. Much as I like "ping ping.ripe.net" it alone is too
> intertwined with DNS resolution to be a reliable alternative.

I dunno.  I think I'd find that being unable to resolve a hostname or
being unable to exchange packets result in a similar level of Internet
brokenness.  It is going to be hard to quantify all the things you might
want to test for.  You already enumerated several.  But if it has to be
a comprehensive "Internet is fully working" test, what do you do to be
able to detect that your local coffee shop isn't implementing a net nanny
filter?  Just to take it too far down the road.  ;-)

> > Fundamentally, this is a valid issue.
> 
> Yup. There are far more home-gamers and tiny network admins (the networks are tiny, not
> the admins) who just want to run a reachability test or add a command to a cheap network
> monitor cron job. Those on this list who can - or should - do something more sophisticated
> are numerically in the minority of people who care about reachability and are not really
> the target audience for a better "ping 8.8.8.8".

Well, that's sorta true.

> > and we'll end up needing a special non-ping client and some trainwreck of names and
> > other hard-to-grok
> 
> I'm not sure the two are fundamentally intertwined tho it could easily be an unintended
> consequence. However, being constrained to creating a new ping target does severely limit
> the choices. And including ipv6 just makes that more complicated.
> 
> The other matter is that the alternative probably has to present a compelling case to
> cause change in behavior. I can see an industry standard ping target being of possible use
> to tests built into devices. But again it'd have to be compelling for most manufacturers
> to even notice.

Change happens.  Look at pool.ntp.org.

> But for humans, I'd be surprised if you can create a compelling alternative ping
> target. For them, I'd be going down the path of a "ping-internet" command which answers
> use-cases 1. & 2. while carefully avoiding the second-system syndrome - he says with a
> laugh.

Well, I've lamented many times over the years about how we (as a network
operations community) have failed to address issues in a meaningful way.

End users are using "ping 8.8.8.8" to test basic connectivity.

I'm happy to see the development of resources such as the RIPE Atlas
monitor, because for too many years I've had to guess at strategic
points to monitor.

However, tools for the average end user that could also be used by the
more experienced folks would be nice.

... JG
-- 
Joe Greco - sol.net Network Services - Milwaukee, WI - http://www.sol.net
"The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way
through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that
democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"-Asimov