DDOS, IDS, RTBH, and Rate limiting

Robert Duffy rob at esecuredata.com
Fri Nov 21 02:19:31 UTC 2014

Roland, you seem to have a lot of experience with these kinds of tools.
What open-source NetFlow analysis tools would you recommend for quickly
detecting a DDoS attack?

On Thu, Nov 20, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Roland Dobbins <rdobbins at arbor.net> wrote:

> On 21 Nov 2014, at 6:22, Denys Fedoryshchenko wrote:
>  Netflow is stateful stuff,
> This is factually incorrect; NetFlow flows are unidirectional in nature,
> and in any event have no effect on processing of data-plane traffic.
>  and just to run it on wirespeed, on hardware, you need to utilise
>> significant part of TCAM,
> Again, this is factually incorrect.
>  i am not talking that on some hardware it is just impossible to run it.
> This is also factually incorrect.  Some platforms/linecards do not in fact
> support NetFlow (or other varieties of flow telemetry) due to hardware
> limitations.
>  And last thing, from one of public papers, netflow delaying factors:
>> 1. Flow record expiration
> This is tunable.
>  • Typical delay: 15-60 sec.
> This is an entirely subjective assessment, and does not reflect
> operational realities.  These are typically *maximum values* - and they are
> well within operationally-useful timeframes.  Also, the effect of NetFlow
> cache size and resultant FIFOing of flow records is not taken into account,
> nor is the effect on flow termination and flow-record export of TCP FIN or
> RST flags denoting TCP traffic taken into account.
>  So for a small hosting(up to 10G), i believe, FastNetMon is best solution.
> This is a gross over-generalization unsupported by facts.  Many years of
> operational experience with NetFlow and other forms of flow telemetry by
> large numbers of network operators of all sizes and varieties contract this
> over-generalization.
> It is generally unwise to make sweeping statements regarding operational
> impact which are not borne out by significant operational experience in
> production networks.
>  Faster, and no significant investments to equipment.
> This statement indicates a lack of understanding of opex costs,
> irrespective of capex costs.
>  Bigger hosting providers might reuse their existing servers, segment the
>> network, and implement inexpensive monitoring on aggregation switches
>> without any additional cost again.
> This statement indicates a lack of operational experience in networks of
> even minimal scale.
>  Ah, and there is one more huge problem with netflow vs FastNetMon -
>> netflow just by design cannot be adapted to run pattern matching, while it
>> is trivial to patch FastNetMon for that, turning it to mini-IDS for free.
> This statement betrays a lack of understanding of NetFlow-based (and other
> flow telemetry-based) detection and classification, as well as the
> undesirability and negative operational impact of stateful IDS/'IPS'
> deployments in production networks.
> You should also note that FastNetMon is far from unique; there are
> multiple other open-source tools which provide the same type of
> functionality, and none of them have replaced flow telemetry, either.
> Tools such as FastNetMon supplement flow telemetry, in situations in which
> such tools can be deployed.  They do not begin to replace flow telemetry,
> and they are not inherently superior to flow telemetry.
> Again, I'm sure FastNetMon is a useful tool in many circumstances.  But it
> would be a much better idea to define FastNetMon positively in terms of its
> own inherent value, rather than attempting to define it based upon
> factually incorrect negative 'comparisons' to other well-established,
> widely-used technologies which have demonstrable track records within the
> global operational community.
> -----------------------------------
> Roland Dobbins <rdobbins at arbor.net>

Robert Duffy
eSecureData.com Inc.
1478 Hartley Ave.
Coquitlam, BC V3K 7A1
T: (800) 620-1985
F: (800) 620-1986

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