NANOG Digest, Vol 50, Issue 113

Frasier, Sean sean.frasier at
Tue Mar 27 10:34:28 CDT 2012


----- Original Message -----
From: nanog-request at <nanog-request at>
To: nanog at <nanog at>
Sent: Tue Mar 27 11:22:36 2012
Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 50, Issue 113

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: OWA blocked by China (TR Shaw)
   2. RE: OWA blocked by China (Thomas York)
   3. Re: Muni Fiber (Ray Soucy)
   4. Re: Muni Fiber (was: Re: last mile, regulatory incentives,
      etc) (Owen DeLong)
   5. Re: Muni Fiber (Owen DeLong)


Message: 1
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:45:25 -0400
From: TR Shaw <tshaw at>
To: Jim Gonzalez <jim at>
Cc: nanog at
Subject: Re: OWA blocked by China
Message-ID: <DD584E3F-7B92-4076-8983-A24C8D699E6D at>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:16 AM, Jim Gonzalez wrote:

> Hello,
>                One of my customers has workers in China. There outlook web
> access is blocked by the China Firewall. I was just wondering if anyone had
> this issue ? I have not tried any work arounds as of yet just gathering info


Try a tunnel?



Message: 2
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:50:53 -0400
From: "Thomas York" <straterra at>
To: <tshaw at>,   <jim at>
Cc: nanog at
Subject: RE: OWA blocked by China
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Good luck with that. I have three plants in China and China Telecom loves
batting down our VPN tunnels. They've left the current solution alone for a
few months now. It appears they try to do DPI on SSL/IPSec to see if it's a
VPN tunnel. I placed our SSL OpenVPN tunnel inside of a GRE tunnel. For some
reason, they don't seem to be doing DPI on it and mostly leave it alone now.
I'm sure it'll change at some point soon, though.

-- Thomas York

-----Original Message-----
From: TR Shaw [mailto:tshaw at]
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:45 AM
To: Jim Gonzalez
Cc: nanog at
Subject: Re: OWA blocked by China

On Mar 27, 2012, at 10:16 AM, Jim Gonzalez wrote:

> Hello,
>                One of my customers has workers in China. There outlook
> web access is blocked by the China Firewall. I was just wondering if
> anyone had this issue ? I have not tried any work arounds as of yet
> just gathering info


Try a tunnel?


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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 10:57:51 -0400
From: Ray Soucy <rps at>
To: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at>
Cc: NANOG <nanog at>
Subject: Re: Muni Fiber
        <CALFTrnMbqbqUxd4RJZN6jtBWOo94LQfg-3xy6qp8LBk7_kn+oQ at>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

"Politically and legally are another matter" being key ;-)

It was a long hard fight even in Maine to get a dark fiber utility (over a
year of going before the legislature).  The ILEC lobbyists are very
influential and want to maintain the status quo at all costs.

A lot of the examples you listed are pilot projects that providers do
mostly for PR purposes so they can say "we provide FTTH" with a "* in
select areas" footnote.  They rarely see any large scale adoption and are
usually operated at a loss.

I think the key problem is that building out fiber doesn't make business
sense if each provider in an area has to build out identical infrastructure
and doesn't have the safety of a monopoly.  As mentioned, providers are
also concerned with the time it will take to realize ROI.  The result is
that we need to subsidize this infrastructure if we want it, but we end up
with no competition and poor service if the service provider is the one
getting those subsidies.  Aside from very urban areas where the density can
support the investment, the only solution becomes to create an open access
public utility to maintain the fiber plant, cans, huts, etc. and prohibit
them from offering any lit services over that fiber.

As for rural areas not needing broadband; I think it's a matter of
national interest that everyone has access to broadband.  Just like power.
 When we make an effort to lift everyone up, we all do better.

The Internet, like the Interstate highway system, is a time machine.  It
shortens distances between people and makes us more productive.  Even
better, it allows businesses to locate anywhere.

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 10:02 AM, Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at
> wrote:

> Ray Soucy wrote:
>> If people got serious about FTTH, I think a _very_ optimistic timeline
>> would be something like:
> Not optimistic at all, technically or operationally.  Politically and
> legally are another matter:
>> 2015 - First communities coming online, 100M to the home (probably Gigabit
>> line rate, but throttled).
> There's been quite a lot of FTTH for quite a few years now.  In addition
> to the Verizon FIOS stuff - up to 135mbps down/ 35mbps up available where I
> am (though I've been quite happy with lower speeds).
> Municipal electric utilities have been deploying fiber right and left.
>  Probably 200 systems operational.  The two that come to mind immediately
> are:
> Chattanooga, TN - GigE FTTH Today - -
> Grant County PUD (public utility district), OR has had the fiber in for a
> few years, selling wholesale - not sure what specific retail services are
> available
> There'd probably be a lot more available if the big telcos and cable
> companies weren't doing everything they can to block municipal bids.
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra

Ray Soucy

Epic Communications Specialist

Phone: +1 (207) 561-3526

Networkmaine, a Unit of the University of Maine System


Message: 4
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:03:44 -0700
From: Owen DeLong <owen at>
To: Jay Ashworth <jra at>
Cc: NANOG <nanog at>
Subject: Re: Muni Fiber (was: Re: last mile, regulatory incentives,
Message-ID: <AF7AB7CD-AB81-4D99-82DD-37688FFB18E1 at>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=us-ascii

Actual public financed non-muni fiber is skipping the easy parts and deploying only a few of the hard parts.
(current actual results of USF)

How is that an improvement?


On Mar 25, 2012, at 8:47 AM, Jay Ashworth wrote:

> Well, for my part, /most of the poiny/ of muni is The Public Good; if /actual/ bond financed muni fiber is skipping the Hard Parts, it deserves to lose.
> Time to assemble some stats, I guess.
> -- jra
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> Owen DeLong <owen at> wrote:
> Who cares?
> It's time to stop letting rural deployments stand in the way of municipal deployments.
> It's a natural part of living outside of a population center that it costs more to bring utility services to you. I'm not entirely opposed (though somewhat) to subsidizing that to some extent, but, I'm tired of municipal deployments being blocked by this sense of equal entitlement to rural.
> The rural builds cost more, take longer, and yield lower revenues. It makes no sense to let that stand in the way of building out municipalities. Nothing prevents rural residents who have the means and really want their buildout prioritized from building a collective to get it done.
> Subsidizing rural build-out is one thing. Failing to build out municipalities because of some sense of rural entitlement? That's just stupid.
> Owen
> Sent from my iPa
>  d
> On Mar 24, 2012, at 12:42 PM, "Frank Bulk" <frnkblk at> wrote:
> > How many munis serve the rural like they do the urban?
> >
> > In the vast majority of cases the munis end up doing what ILECs only wish they could do -- serve the most profitable customers.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jay Ashworth [mailto:jra at]
> > Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 12:52 PM
> > To: NANOG
> > Subject: Muni Fiber (was: Re: last mile, regulatory incentives, etc)
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > Oh, it's *much* worse than that, John.
> >
> > The *right*, long term solution to all of these problems is for
> > municipalities to do the fiber build, properly engineered, and even
> > subbed out to a contractor to build and possibly operate...
> >
> > offering *only* layer 1 service at wholesale.  Any comer
>   can
> light up
> > each city's pop, and offer retail service over the FTTH fiber to that
> > customer at whatever rate they like, and the city itself doesn't offer
> > layer 2 or 3 service at all.
> >
> > High-speed optical data *is* the next natural monopoly, after power
> > and water/sewer delivery, and it's time to just get over it and do it
> > right.
> >
> > As you might imagine, this environment -- one where the LEC doesn't own
> > the physical plant -- scares the ever-lovin' daylights out of Verizon
> > (among others), so much so that they *have gotten it made illegal* in
> > several states, and they're lobbying to expand that footprint.
> >
> > See, among other sites:
> >
> > As you might imagine, I am a fairly strong proponent of muni layer 1 --
> > or even layer 2, where the municipality suppli
>  es
> (matching) ONTs, and
> > services have to fit over GigE -- fiber delivery of high-speed data
> > service.
> >
> > I believe Google agrees with me.  :-)
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -- jra
> >
> > Cheers,
> > -- jra
> > --
> > Jay R. Ashworth                  Baylink                       jra at
> > Designer                     The Things I Think                       RFC 2100
> > Ashworth & Associates         2000 Land Rover DII
> > St Petersburg FL USA             +1 727 647 1274
> >
> >
> >


Message: 5
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 08:19:46 -0700
From: Owen DeLong <owen at>
To: Leo Bicknell <bicknell at>
Cc: nanog at
Subject: Re: Muni Fiber
Message-ID: <72636209-A7EF-4AB8-A145-55D6B3A06EAD at>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> Politically the makings of a similar situation already exist.
> Goverment has swung the USF funds to fuel rual broadband, strongly
> favoring FTTx where it makes sense.  While companies like Verizon
> enjoy not having to share their fiber lines now, these same forces
> will conspire to drive unbundling in fiber, just as it did in copper.
> What they are getting now is simply a first mover advantage.

It's a bigger first mover advantage. They've learned their lesson from the
copper unbundling and they are being allowed to deploy fiber in ways
that will make it hard (impossible) to sell it on an unbundled basis later.

> Government at the end of the day will fund the 20-40% of America
> which is profitable in the long run, but not in commercial time
> scales.  They will also fund the 10% of America which will never
> be profitable, no mater what.  It happened with Electricity and
> Telephone, and I suspect the societal drivers to do the same with
> the Internet will be even stronger.  Companies will have to accept an
> unbundled tail to get access to this 30-50% of the market; and while
> they aren't interested now, they will be very soon.

Maybe, but, if what is happening now is allowed to continue, it will:

1.      Not encourage competition anywhere.
2.      Allow existing monopolies to preserve and extend those monopolies.
3.      Cost even more than it already has.
4.      Continue to lag behind the rest of the world.
5.      Result in an inferior solution.

What is needed is for regulators to step up with a bold vision for the
public good. We need to encourage (or even require) local authorities
to deploy (themselves or by contract) independent L1 infrastructure (yes,
I like the 4-8 strands per residence star topology idea) to every structure
within their jurisdiction and make it available to L2+ service providers
on an equal-cost-per-subscriber basis in each jurisdiction.

Yes, this means that the cost per subscriber will be lower in denser
jurisdictions than it will be in less dense jurisdictions. However, users
in those jurisdictions should expect to pay more for services and the
ability to attract L2+ service providers can be achieved in a variety
of ways.

The important thing is to make sure that if public money is being used
to build infrastructure, it becomes infrastructure that is useful to said
public and not just a subsidy to some corporation for extending its
monopoly in a manner that is often contrary to the public good.

Unfortunately, that is exactly where the money is going today.


End of NANOG Digest, Vol 50, Issue 113

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