NANOG Digest, Vol 44, Issue 55 - Re: ouch..

Sutton, Allen Allen.Sutton at CenturyLink.com
Wed Sep 14 10:45:12 CDT 2011


Well, I'm not surprised at all, being that Cisco also does this to Alcatel-Lucent:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX3zvjX3c5Q

I think Cisco is just running scared now.  If they didn't charge so much for their products, they wouldn't have this problem.  In addition, I think they also thought that they would be # 1 forever and that nobody could touch them, so they just stopped trying to stay ahead of the competition.
_________________________________
Allen


-----Original Message-----
From: nanog-request at nanog.org [mailto:nanog-request at nanog.org]
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 7:56 AM
To: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 44, Issue 55

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Today's Topics:

   1. RE: NAT444 or ? (Dan Wing)
   2. ouch.. (Martin Hepworth)
   3. Re: ouch.. (Vlad Galu)
   4. Re: ouch.. (Nick Hilliard)
   5. Re: ouch.. (Brian Raaen)
   6. Re: ouch.. (Always Learning)
   7. Re: ouch.. (Frank Habicht)
   8. HP A-series, H3C, Huawei and their capabilities in real-life
      (Mark Smith)
   9. RE: ouch.. (Erik Bais)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2011 22:28:17 -0700
From: "Dan Wing" <dwing at cisco.com>
To: "'Owen DeLong'" <owen at delong.com>
Cc: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: RE: NAT444 or ?
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen at delong.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 9:43 PM
> To: Dan Wing
> Cc: 'Leigh Porter'; 'David Israel'; nanog at nanog.org
> Subject: Re: NAT444 or ?
>
> >>
> >> Good point, but aside from these scaling issues which I expect can
> be
> >> resolved to a point, the more serious issue, I think, is
> applications
> >> that just do not work with double NAT. Now, I have not conducted
> >> any serious research into this, but it seems that
> >> draft-donley-nat444- impacts does appear to have highlight issues
> >> that may have been down
> to
> >> implementation.
> >
> > Draft-donley-nat444-impacts conflates bandwidth constraints with CGN
> > with in-home NAT.  Until those are separated and then analyzed
> carefully,
> > it is harmful to draw conclusions such as "NAT444 bad; NAT44 good".
> >
>
> Continuing to make this claim does not make it any more true.
>
> Draft-donley took networks and measured their real-world functionality
> without NAT444, then, added NAT444 and repeated the same tests.
> Regardless of the underlying issue(s), the addition of NAT444 to the
> mix resulted in the forms of service degradation enumerated in the
> draft.

I disagree it reached that conclusion.  That may have been its intent.

> Further, I would not ever say "NAT444 bad; NAT44 good". I would say,
> rather, "NAT44 bad, NAT444 worse". I think that's a pretty safe and
> non-harmful thing to say.

Yes, your statement is completely accurate.  I agree that IPv4 address sharing causes additional problems (which encompasses all forms of
IPv4 address sharing), and CGN causes additional problems.

> >> Other simple tricks such as ensuring that your own internal
> >> services such as DNS are available without traversing NAT also help.
> >
> > Yep.  But some users want to use other DNS servers for performance
> > (e.g., Google's or OpenDNS servers, especially considering they
> > could point the user at a 'better' (closer) CDN based on Client IP),
> > to avoid ISP DNS hijacking, or for content control (e.g., "parental
> > control" of DNS hostnames).  That traffic will,
> necessarily,
> > traverse the CGN.  To avoid users burning through their UDP port
> > allocation for those DNS queries it is useful for the CGN to have
> > short timeouts for port 53.
> >
> If the user chooses to use a DNS server on the other side of a NAT,
> then, they are choosing to inflict whatever damage upon themselves.
> I'm not saying that short UDP/53 timeouts are a bad idea, but, I am
> saying that the more stuff you funnel through an LSN at the carrier,
> the more stuff you will see break. This would lead me to want to avoid
> funneling anything through said NAT which I could avoid. Then again, I
> run my own authoritative and recursive nameservers in my home and
> don't use any NAT at all, so, perhaps my perspective is different from
> others.

Yeah, you are probably of about 1000 or maybe 3000 people in the world that do that.  Seems to be a minority.

> >> Certainly some more work can be done in this area, but I fear that
> the
> >> only way a real idea as to how much NAT444 really doe break things
> will
> >> be operational experience.
> >
> > Yep.  (Same as everything else.)
> >
>
> I'm sure that will happen soon enough. I, for one, am not looking
> forward to the experience.

Neither am I.

But if major content providers cannot provide AAAA on their properties, and if ISPs and CPE vendors do not make IPv6 available and working, and if web browsers don't adopt faster fallback to IPv4 when IPv6 is borked ....  We will all be behind NATs.

-d





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:42:35 +0100
From: Martin Hepworth <maxsec at gmail.com>
To: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: ouch..
Message-ID:
        <CAGDKorJEvBHG21zOtmoS634pCKgGb2o96ahCuePKqmunSX402Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/


--
Martin Hepworth
Oxford, UK


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:51:00 +0200
From: Vlad Galu <galu at packetdam.com>
To: Martin Hepworth <maxsec at gmail.com>
Cc: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <E963444C-A6C5-4399-AB1D-806F59C63389 at packetdam.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

On Sep 14, 2011, at 12:42 PM, Martin Hepworth wrote:
> http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/


Saying the other brand sucks doesn't make yours any better. Besides, there are other big players on the market. Terribly lame of Cisco...

Vlad Galu
galu at packetdam.com







------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 11:54:59 +0100
From: Nick Hilliard <nick at foobar.org>
To: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <4E708803.5040506 at foobar.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 14/09/2011 11:42, Martin Hepworth wrote:
> http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/

Wow, classy.

Nick



------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 07:15:08 -0400
From: Brian Raaen <nanog at rhemasound.org>
To: Martin Hepworth <maxsec at gmail.com>
Cc: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <20110914111508.GA6498 at brian>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip do not look related to cisco even though someone has falsely pasted their logo all over the site.



whois overpromisesunderdelivers.net

Whois Server Version 2.0

Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
for detailed information.

   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
   Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
   Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
   Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
   Name Server: NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Name Server: NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
   Status: clientDeleteProhibited
   Status: clientRenewProhibited
   Status: clientTransferProhibited
   Status: clientUpdateProhibited
   Updated Date: 05-sep-2011
   Creation Date: 05-sep-2011
   Expiration Date: 05-sep-2012

Registrant:
   Domains by Proxy, Inc.
   DomainsByProxy.com
   15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
   Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
   United States

   Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
   Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
      Created on: 05-Sep-11
      Expires on: 05-Sep-12
      Last Updated on: 05-Sep-11

   Administrative Contact:
      Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET at domainsbyproxy.com
      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Technical Contact:
      Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET at domainsbyproxy.com
      Domains by Proxy, Inc.
      DomainsByProxy.com
      15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
      Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
      United States
      (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598

   Domain servers in listed order:
      NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
      NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM



braaen at brian:~$ dig OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 40339
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. IN      A

;; ANSWER SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  A       98.129.229.190

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns36.domaincontrol.com.
OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns35.domaincontrol.com.

;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
ns35.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       216.69.185.18
ns36.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       208.109.255.18


braaen at brian:~$ dig -x 98.129.229.190

; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> -x 98.129.229.190
;; global options: +cmd
;; Got answer:
;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 26507
;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0

;; QUESTION SECTION:
;190.229.129.98.in-addr.arpa.   IN      PTR

;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
229.129.98.in-addr.arpa. 300    IN      SOA     ns.rackspace.com. hostmaster.rackspace.com. 1314291452 3600 300 1814400 300



---
Brian Raaen
Network Architect
Zcorum
On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:42:35AM +0100, Martin Hepworth wrote:
> http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/
>
>
> --
> Martin Hepworth
> Oxford, UK



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 12:20:15 +0100
From: Always Learning <nanog at u61.u22.net>
To: Brian Raaen <nanog at rhemasound.org>
Cc: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <1315999215.15630.3.camel at m6.u226.com>
Content-Type: text/plain


On Wed, 2011-09-14 at 07:15 -0400, Brian Raaen wrote:

> Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip
> do not look related to cisco even though someone has falsely pasted
> their logo all over the site.

(1) If Cisco were responsible, would they want to advertise the fact ?

(2) If Cisco feel their intellectual and copyright property is being
abused, Cisco lawyers would have the Cisco name and branding removed in
seconds !


Paul,
England,
EU.





------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:20:56 +0300
From: Frank Habicht <geier at geier.ne.tz>
To: nanog at nanog.org
Subject: Re: ouch..
Message-ID: <4E708E18.3070006 at geier.ne.tz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Main cisco page has a link to it...

Frank

On 9/14/2011 2:15 PM, Brian Raaen wrote:
> Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip do not look related to cisco even though someone has falsely pasted their logo all over the site.
>
>
>
> whois overpromisesunderdelivers.net
>
> Whois Server Version 2.0
>
> Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
> with many different competing registrars. Go to http://www.internic.net
> for detailed information.
>
>    Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
>    Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
>    Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
>    Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
>    Name Server: NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
>    Name Server: NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
>    Status: clientDeleteProhibited
>    Status: clientRenewProhibited
>    Status: clientTransferProhibited
>    Status: clientUpdateProhibited
>    Updated Date: 05-sep-2011
>    Creation Date: 05-sep-2011
>    Expiration Date: 05-sep-2012
>
> Registrant:
>    Domains by Proxy, Inc.
>    DomainsByProxy.com
>    15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
>    Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
>    United States
>
>    Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
>    Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
>       Created on: 05-Sep-11
>       Expires on: 05-Sep-12
>       Last Updated on: 05-Sep-11
>
>    Administrative Contact:
>       Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET at domainsbyproxy.com
>       Domains by Proxy, Inc.
>       DomainsByProxy.com
>       15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
>       Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
>       United States
>       (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598
>
>    Technical Contact:
>       Private, Registration  OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET at domainsbyproxy.com
>       Domains by Proxy, Inc.
>       DomainsByProxy.com
>       15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
>       Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
>       United States
>       (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598
>
>    Domain servers in listed order:
>       NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
>       NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
>
>
>
> braaen at brian:~$ dig OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
>
> ; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
> ;; global options: +cmd
> ;; Got answer:
> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 40339
> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2
>
> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> ;OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. IN      A
>
> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  A       98.129.229.190
>
> ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns36.domaincontrol.com.
> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS      ns35.domaincontrol.com.
>
> ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
> ns35.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       216.69.185.18
> ns36.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       208.109.255.18
>
>
> braaen at brian:~$ dig -x 98.129.229.190
>
> ; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> -x 98.129.229.190
> ;; global options: +cmd
> ;; Got answer:
> ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 26507
> ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
>
> ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> ;190.229.129.98.in-addr.arpa.   IN      PTR
>
> ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
> 229.129.98.in-addr.arpa. 300    IN      SOA     ns.rackspace.com. hostmaster.rackspace.com. 1314291452 3600 300 1814400 300
>
>
>
> ---
> Brian Raaen
> Network Architect
> Zcorum
> On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:42:35AM +0100, Martin Hepworth wrote:
>> http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/
>>
>>
>> --
>> Martin Hepworth
>> Oxford, UK
>




------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 14:27:20 +0300
From: Mark Smith <markrefresh12 at gmail.com>
To: NANOG at nanog.org
Subject: HP A-series, H3C, Huawei and their capabilities in real-life
Message-ID:
        <CAE79DorP-waM_EdHQJvQMw+mftM+BAv35tGhTz7TeYJTy-ON1Q at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi list

Does anyone have (or know somebody who has) real-life experience of HP
A-series (former Huawei and H3C) high-end routers in service provider
environment? From the specs they look very good (both features and
performance) but the specs don't tell everything and nothing can
replace real-life experience.

The features I'm interested in include (not in any specific order)
- v4 and v6 routing
- BGP (full feed)
- OSPF and IS-IS
- MPLS(-TE) P/PE functionality (RSVP, L3VPN, VPLS)

For example this box
http://h17007.www1.hp.com/us/en/products/routers/HP_A8800_Router_Series/index.aspx

Any info or pointers greatly appreciated.

Rgds,
Mark



------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2011 13:55:47 +0200
From: "Erik Bais" <ebais at a2b-internet.com>
To: "'Frank Habicht'" <geier at geier.ne.tz>,      <nanog at nanog.org>
Subject: RE: ouch..
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="us-ascii"

Hi Frank,

http://blogs.cisco.com/tag/overpromise/

Quote from the blog: "Some vendors have repeatedly over-promised and under
delivered, and still somehow receive credit for their vision! (You can read
more about one vendor's repeated broken promises here.)"

http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/

https://twitter.com/#!/CiscoSystems/status/113226120601677825

https://twitter.com/#!/CiscoNL/statuses/113577908525744129

Personally I think this is a pathetic action from Cisco, however I'm not
surprised by them doing it ...

Regards,
Erik Bais

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Habicht [mailto:geier at geier.ne.tz]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 1:21 PM
> To: nanog at nanog.org
> Subject: Re: ouch..
>
> Main cisco page has a link to it...
>
> Frank
>
> On 9/14/2011 2:15 PM, Brian Raaen wrote:
> > Looks like some random person registered this one.  The domain and ip
> do not look related to cisco even though someone has falsely pasted
> their logo all over the site.
> >
> >
> >
> > whois overpromisesunderdelivers.net
> >
> > Whois Server Version 2.0
> >
> > Domain names in the .com and .net domains can now be registered
> > with many different competing registrars. Go to
> http://www.internic.net
> > for detailed information.
> >
> >    Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
> >    Registrar: GODADDY.COM, INC.
> >    Whois Server: whois.godaddy.com
> >    Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
> >    Name Server: NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
> >    Name Server: NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
> >    Status: clientDeleteProhibited
> >    Status: clientRenewProhibited
> >    Status: clientTransferProhibited
> >    Status: clientUpdateProhibited
> >    Updated Date: 05-sep-2011
> >    Creation Date: 05-sep-2011
> >    Expiration Date: 05-sep-2012
> >
> > Registrant:
> >    Domains by Proxy, Inc.
> >    DomainsByProxy.com
> >    15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
> >    Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
> >    United States
> >
> >    Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
> >    Domain Name: OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
> >       Created on: 05-Sep-11
> >       Expires on: 05-Sep-12
> >       Last Updated on: 05-Sep-11
> >
> >    Administrative Contact:
> >       Private, Registration
> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET at domainsbyproxy.com
> >       Domains by Proxy, Inc.
> >       DomainsByProxy.com
> >       15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
> >       Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
> >       United States
> >       (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598
> >
> >    Technical Contact:
> >       Private, Registration
> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET at domainsbyproxy.com
> >       Domains by Proxy, Inc.
> >       DomainsByProxy.com
> >       15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
> >       Scottsdale, Arizona 85260
> >       United States
> >       (480) 624-2599      Fax -- (480) 624-2598
> >
> >    Domain servers in listed order:
> >       NS35.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
> >       NS36.DOMAINCONTROL.COM
> >
> >
> >
> > braaen at brian:~$ dig OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
> >
> > ; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET
> > ;; global options: +cmd
> > ;; Got answer:
> > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 40339
> > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 2, ADDITIONAL: 2
> >
> > ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> > ;OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. IN      A
> >
> > ;; ANSWER SECTION:
> > OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  A       98.129.229.190
> >
> > ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
> > OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS
> ns36.domaincontrol.com.
> > OVERPROMISESUNDERDELIVERS.NET. 3364 IN  NS
> ns35.domaincontrol.com.
> >
> > ;; ADDITIONAL SECTION:
> > ns35.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       216.69.185.18
> > ns36.domaincontrol.com. 3046    IN      A       208.109.255.18
> >
> >
> > braaen at brian:~$ dig -x 98.129.229.190
> >
> > ; <<>> DiG 9.7.3 <<>> -x 98.129.229.190
> > ;; global options: +cmd
> > ;; Got answer:
> > ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NXDOMAIN, id: 26507
> > ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 0, AUTHORITY: 1, ADDITIONAL: 0
> >
> > ;; QUESTION SECTION:
> > ;190.229.129.98.in-addr.arpa.   IN      PTR
> >
> > ;; AUTHORITY SECTION:
> > 229.129.98.in-addr.arpa. 300    IN      SOA     ns.rackspace.com.
> hostmaster.rackspace.com. 1314291452 3600 300 1814400 300
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Brian Raaen
> > Network Architect
> > Zcorum
> > On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 11:42:35AM +0100, Martin Hepworth wrote:
> >> http://www.overpromisesunderdelivers.net/
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Martin Hepworth
> >> Oxford, UK
> >
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3895 - Release Date: 09/13/11




End of NANOG Digest, Vol 44, Issue 55
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