DMCA takedowns of networks

Joe Greco jgreco at
Sat Oct 24 19:23:57 UTC 2009

> On Oct 24, 2009, at 2:28 PM, Joe Greco wrote:
> >> Laws frequently have multiple options for compliance.  Doesn't mean
> >> you don't have to follow the law.
> >
> > A DMCA takedown notice isn't "law," Patrick, and does not have the  
> > "force
> > of law" claimed above.
> You say potato, I say whatever.  "In the field of law, the word force  
> has two main meanings: unlawful violence and lawful compulsion."  They  
> are lawfully compelling you to take down the content, or explain why  
> you should not. 

I think you need to read the DMCA.  You may feel free to point out
where it says "service provider must do X."  Because I suspect you
will find out that it _really_ says, "in order to retain safe harbor
protection, service provider must do X."

The latter is not lawfully compelling me to do anything.

> This is no different from many "legal" notices.  If  
> you ignore the notice, you risk legal ramifications, including the  
> loss of Safe Harbor defense.
> This pice of paper has the "force" of the US gov't behind it.  What  
> would you call "the force of law?"
> Feel free to believe otherwise.  IANAL (or even an ISP :), so maybe  
> I'm wrong.  But I'm not going to think poorly of any provider who  
> thinks otherwise.

I "believe" what the lawyers tell me.  They tell me that we may lose 
safe harbor if we do not comply with a takedown notice.  That's about 

> >>> This seems like a very obvious case of parody/fair use,
> >>
> >> Possibly, but I do not blame a provider to not being willing to make
> >> that distinction.
> >
> > Yes, but it's troubling that a nontrivial provider of transit would  
> > make
> > such a mistake.  This is like Cogent, who, at one point, received a  
> > DMCA
> > (or possibly just abuse complaint) about content being posted  
> > through a
> > server of a client's, and who proceeded to try to null-route that  
> > Usenet
> > news server's address.
> [snip - bunch of stuff about Cogent]
> It is almost certainly not "like" anything.
> I'm guessing that you have no clue what actually happened.  People are  
> making assumptions from third-party accounts using 5th hand info.   
> Generalization is bad, generalization on such flimsy info is silly.
> Maybe they typo'ed a filter list.  Maybe some newbie over-reacted.   
> Maybe the customer did not pay their bill.  WE HAVE NO IDEA WHY THIS  

Of course not.  But there are at least some of us who have been through
all of this; we can fill in the blanks and make some reasonable 

> > To be clear: I agree that a provider might not want to make a
> > distinction between a legitimate DMCA takedown and something that's
> > not, but it is reasonable to limit oneself to the things required by
> > the DMCA.  Null-routing a virtual web server's IP and interfering
> > with the operation of other services is probably overreaching, at
> > least as a first step.
> I have stated over & over that it is not right for HE to take down non- 
> infringing sites - _if_ that is what happened.
> So why are we having this discussion?
Because it appears that HE took down non-infringing sites?

Excuse me for stating the obvious.  :-)
... JG
Joe Greco - Network Services - Milwaukee, WI -
"We call it the 'one bite at the apple' rule. Give me one chance [and] then I
won't contact you again." - Direct Marketing Ass'n position on e-mail spam(CNN)
With 24 million small businesses in the US alone, that's way too many apples.

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