protocols that don't meet the need...

David Meyer dmm at
Wed Feb 15 15:23:03 UTC 2006

On Tue, Feb 14, 2006 at 07:09:38PM -0500, Christian Kuhtz wrote:
> David,
> On Feb 14, 2006, at 5:07 PM, David Meyer wrote:
> >>Hmm, well, when there is lots of vendor and academia involvement, no,
> >>there's no operator community presented in number of things I'm
> >>following in the IETF.  Take manet, for example, I don't even know to
> >>begin where to inject operator concerns/requirements. :-/
> >
> >	Well taken. And further, I would say manet is more the
> >	rule than the exception in this respect. BTW, it took me
> >	years to become facile with the (IETF) process (if I'm
> >	even there now :-)). I can say that I had excellent
> >	mentoring (Randy and perhaps a few others), so that
> >	helped. Maybe we need something not as formal as an IETF
> >	liaison relationship, but perhaps something like
> >	that. More thinking required...
> Thanks for the feedback.  

	Any time.

> I've been following manet as an interested  
> party for a while, with no real mission other than tracking it for  
> emerging technologies R&D.  Lately, job is architecting municipal  
> wireless networks (which is really far more than what most people  
> think of when they think Sbux style WISP hotspots).  And I'm looking  
> at the IETF for what's been worked out so far with respect to  
> wireless routing protocols for example, and I just can't help sitting  
> here scratching my head about how I would ever use what they've come  
> up with so far.  And right now, I really can't without major  
> modifications it seems.   And I find that really sad actually.

	That is a perfect example of the reason why we need more
	"reality clue" (or whatever) from the ops community in
	the standards process (choose your SDO). IMO, of
	course; others will (strenuously) differ with me. 

> And, don't get me wrong, but I'm not trying to bash them at all.   I  
> just think that real world operations needs and concepts like  
> wholesale access aren't even anywhere near the radar screen it  
> seems.  And that somehow needs to be fixed.  And, yes, municipal  
> wireless is a roller coaster that's still gathering speed, so,  
> expecting that everything's already grown and ready for us are  
> thoroughly unrealistic.  But! ;-)

	Sure, understood.

> Right now the routing protocol on the mesh side will likely be  
> proprietary for some time, which really isn't in the operator's best  
> interest but that's what we have to work with.  I/we have a  
> substantial interest in this becoming more than an academic PhD  
> thesis exercise, but something that can really be practically used in  
> the real world.
> Now, there is stuff in the MPLS community, for example, that I've  
> followed more or less closely for the past 7 yrs that might actually  
> be fruitful, but it too requires substantial tailoring.  So, no  
> worries about job security there. ;-)
> >>I think this is as much an IETF issue as it is of the operator
> >>community.  Operators need to devote time to IETF to make the work in
> >>the IETF most relevant to the operators needs.
> >
> >	Yes, and this has always been an acute problem as long as
> >	I've been around. People have day (night, weekend
> >	jobs). Co-location of the meetings seems a possible way
> >	to start attacking one aspect that problem, with the
> >	understanding that perhaps travel isn't the biggest of
> >	the problems, but it is a non-trivial issue for many of
> >	us.
> Agreed.  I'm headed to the IEEE 802 plenary in a couple of weeks to  
> start working standards body stuff for us as well, some of what needs  
> to happen is lower layer stuff.  The less trips and the more I can  
> combine them, the more likely my management will look at my travel  
> expense submissions in a favorable light ;-)..  So, the more  
> incentive we can provide with that, the better.

	I talked a bit with the (relatively new) IAD (IETF
	Administrative types) about what might be done here. This
	is something that will take some thought and if anything
	comes of that, some serious planning.

> A while back, there was a desire to colo ARIN with NANOG.  That's  
> really cool to see happen.  For me, no offense to anyone, I really  
> couldn't care less at the moment.  I'm on the opposite side of the  
> spectrum, ARIN being a vehicle for operationalized networks rather  
> than those who are about to be operationalized.  So, perhaps NANOG  
> should be paired up with other industry forums in some kind of  
> rotation..   Anyone got ideas on this?

	Re NANOG/ARIN: The times I've been involved in the joint
	meetings I've found them very useful.

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