Internet Core Routing - Ethernet

Sun Sep 29 05:15:02 UTC 2002

Valdis:

>Hmm... so if somebody posts to the list with the problem, and somebody else 
>saw
>that same issue and got a fix from the vendor, they need to send it to the
>vendor for comment, or they can say "Oh, you're being bit by bug (can't say
>because it would identify the vendor) in a (vendor model you can't say) 
>several
>hops upstream from you".

Is this a problem?  Not on my team.

> > talk about Internet core routing in those terms.  Sure, all vendors 
>suck,
> > but some suck WAY more than others.  I think we all know the names.  I 
>would
>
>And how did we learn the names?  Let's see.. Cisco, Juniper, Proteon, Bay,

Dude, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  You didn't mention my vendor.

>add whatever names you want.  You probably have your own opinions on what  
>each piece of gear is good at.

I'm pretty much good at any vendor, not great.  Some I prefer more than 
others.  I hate wearing my sunglasses to work!

>Now, did you actually *buy* and *use* all of that gear yourself?

Friends in the community are my most trusted resource.

>  Or did
>you let the common knowledge base called NANOG help you out?

It kept me faithful in a single vendor for awhile.  I still kinda like that 
vendor.

>  Remember that
>learning from the mistakes and mishaps of others is a lot cheaper than 
>doing
>them yourself...

No mistakes to report, sir.  NANOG keeps me informed.  It is invaluable when 
used for operations.  The Melissa virus, the WTC disaster, business 
disasters.  I didn't mention the names of service providers, but I consider 
them to be vendors as well.  Let's focus on traffic congestion, resource 
allocation, problems, fixes, reports, and other issues.  A vendor that 
releases an official press release is more than welcome on NANOG.  Up to you 
gues.  I'm just aginst opinionated vendor information coming from NANOG.  
Moderate yourself.

> > now way more than I ever did about token ring.  Wake up.  How many 
>routes
> > can vendor X support with IBGP Nailed Routes?  What is the convergence 
>time
> > for 100,000 routes? Does vendor Z have wire-speed ACL,s, PBR, MPLS?  
>10GigE?
>
>Which would you trust for any of these numbers - a salesdroid *saying* a
>number, or 5 different people on the NANOG list who have all seen a much
>lower-performance number out in the field?

Must I answer this?  I trust myself more than anyone else, that is for sure. 
  I know how to build a network without making too many mistakes, but I 
always seem to fix them and keep the customer (user) happy.  Usually I fix 
them before they become big.  Covey taught me that.

I can build a network with any vendor.  Just like you.  Vendor does NOT 
MATTER TO ME!  If you're posting on NANOG and you don't feel the same, 
perhaps you'd better unsubscribe.  The other option may be to study 
Ethernet.

>How helpful would this list be if vendors had the right to squelch any
>adverse publicity?

No one said squelch.  I don't see squelching on the charter for NANOG.  
Announce as loud as you want to.  Be like other mailing lists and moderate 
it.  Send it to the vendor first.  If the vendor doesn't help you, post it.  
Just like they do with the abuse lists.  This is operational.  I doubt if 
you'll ever need to send anything to NANOG.  ALL OF THE VENDORS WANT TO HELP 
YOU THE BEST THAT THEY CAN!

Everything else you said (below) makes you look like the mad scientist from 
my POV.  My R&D budget is down 72% from last year.  RPR?  RUCRAZY?  Look 
forward to seeing you on the battlefield while I chop you to shreds.  Not a 
single ATM project on the map nowadays huh?  MPLS is out there, but who 
needs it 'cept for certain situations sometimes driven by business needs.  
When I need it, I hope it is over Ethernet.

Wouldn't you rather have a reliable, redundant L2 core with isolated 
failures and fast recovery?  Isn't it just a circuit switched verses packet 
switched argument?  Who cares about the digital wrapper!  Ethernet is my 
digital wrapper of choice because of vendor chipsets supporting it and 
quality product.  It meets my requirements today.  My real world 
requirements.  There are many examples of Ethernet in the internet core 
today.  I know of many service providers using another vendor besides the 
two favorites on NANOG.  They have reference customers.  I am one of them.  
I've been using them for over 3 years and I have no major complaints.

Ethernet: 2  (Mike Lieber did not challenge Ethernet as a technology)
Valdis:   1

Bobby

> > 2.  Ethernet is the technology.
>
>Excuse me if I chuckle, having heard THAT before in the last 2 decades or 
>so.
>
>I've learned to not take *anybody* seriously when they say something is 
>"THE"
>anything.  Structured programming wasn't the end-all, nor was ATM, nor was
>Java, nor will XML or Ethernet.  Yes, 10G-E will probably see wide 
>deployment.
>But I'll make a prediction - there will be something else coming out to
>replace it long before it finishes replacing what's out there now.
>
>(For bonus points, compare  the level-1 media characteristics of the 
>original
>10mbit-over-thickwire with the 10gig-over-optical, and ask yourself if 
>there's
>anything in common other than the name.   It's amazingly reminiscent of the
>saying "I don't know what language number-crunchers will use 20 years from 
>now,
>but it will be called Fortran"....)
>--
>				Valdis Kletnieks
>				Computer Systems Senior Engineer
>				Virginia Tech
>
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