Scott Francis scott at
Fri May 25 23:35:39 UTC 2001

On Fri, May 25, 2001 at 12:49:56PM -0400, Mitch Halmu exclaimed:
[John Frazier]
> > Have you thought about that before sending a large file via email to
> > someone?  Many provides include your email spool in your quota.  Beyond
> > that, there are TONS of free hosting providers out there so your arguement
> > there is moot.
> And many don't. Remember, it has to work for all.

NOTHING 'works for all'. Nothing. End of story. If you're going for 100%
functionality, you might as well give up now.

> > Huh?  You're joking, right?  Believe it or not Mitch, the rest of the
> > internet population isn't just sitting around sucking up oxygen from
> > brain-children like you.  If they're competent enough to create a large
> > presentation, they're competent enough to upload it somewhere.  They can
> > drag and drop with any number of FTP applications.  Moot arguement.
> Ever tried to explain to Joe user what FTP is? DeeAnn Mikula answered 
> that one to the point.

As many others have pointed out ... Joe User, if s/he knows how to use a mail
client, almost certainly knows how to user a browser. Problem solved.

> > Only if they're running REALLY, REALLY old browsers or the server itself
> > is sending an incorrect mime-type for the .zip extension.  Beyond that,
> > they can right-click on the link and do a "save-as" so, this one is moot
> > as well.
> Some still do. Just pointing out potential problems.

The fraction of people both 1) clueless enough to not understand how to click
a link, or upload a file; and 2) running software so old as to not facilitate
this is almost nil. Besides the fact that those belonging to set (2) are much
more likely to be clueful. I use a text-based email client and browse with
lynx frequently, but it's not because I don't know how to install newer
software or upload a file.

> > Please see "free hosting providers" above.  MOOT.
> Well, for one, free stuff on the Internet is comatose.

and the list goes on and on and on and on ... just look at the free porn sites
sometimes. They pop up like mushrooms, almost always hosted on free accounts
that last for a month or so and then move elsewhere. There are more free
webhosts than one can list.

> Second, don't tell me that a user should be required to have both a
> paid account and a freebie just to be able to handle large files.

A user doesn't. If a user has an account they are paying for, and unable to
upload a file through either ignorance or restriction by their ISP, they need
to get another account. Any ISP's front-line support should be able and
willing to give basic instructions to paying customers on how to utilize the
technology they're paying for.

> > OK.  How is that any different that the time it takes you to send the file
> > to the SMTP server?  MOOT!
> Some may compose a message off-line, and have it sent unattended with other
> unsent messages when they go online.

How is this different than uploading the file when you go online? Or composing
the message while offline, and when you send the message, uploading the file?

> > Ever hear of .htaccess?  It's REALLY neat.  If you think your file is safe
> > from prying eyes in email, you've got more problems than not understanding
> > basic authentication on a webserver though.  You should stop argueing your
> > invalid, moot points and spend that precious time reevaluating your
> > security policy.
> Joe user doesn't know about .htaccess, nor does he care. He just wants his
> document sent out like now! Joe doesn't see why he should jump through
> more hoops than his buddy on a competing service anyway.

I know this I'm fighting a losing battle, but there's a reason that FTP stands
for File Transfer Protocol. I'll stop replying now, and return to my corner to
be annoyed at the drop in the average clue level around the Net.

Just because we _can_ do a thing, it does not necessarily follow that doing so
is a good idea.

> Besides, you will now have to confirm that the intended party retrieved
> the document, then go back in and delete it. 

What confirmation? How do you know the intended party retrieved your 10MB
email successfully? You get a reply, right? And you get a reply when they have
downloaded the file, too. And users need to learn not to leave huge temp files
lying around anyway. Deleting a file via FTP is hardly a technical challenge,
even for the uninitiated.

> > No.  That's what the uneducated newbie does.  The regular user uploads it
> > to their http/ftp server and sends a link to the file via email.
> We do provide 10MB of personal web space with every account since 1995.
> Guess how many users even have web pages up? Many simply don't care.

Not having the motivation, knowledge or creativity required to build a website,
and being unable to upload a file are two entirely different situations.

> > Please don't breed.
> Some other brave souls dared to disagree.

Everybody has the right to their own opinion. Even if it's wrong. :)

> John, we provide a service, and don't run a training camp. Most people
> wouldn't agree to the punishment you want to subject them to anyway.

If education is viewed as punishment, it's generally due to the experience
provided by the educator.

> --Mitch
> NetSide

Scott Francis                [email protected] [work:] v i r t u a l i s . c o m
Systems Analyst          [email protected] [home:] d a r k u n c l e . n e t
West Coast Network Ops                           GPG keyid 0xCB33CCA7
               illum oportet crescere me autem minui
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