Stealth Blocking

Christopher B. Zydel czydel at
Wed May 23 23:02:35 UTC 2001

If you want to think of it in those terms, fine. 

Like any other "law", the MAPS RBL has power only because the population 
(of ISPs in this case) at large believes that it is just, and should be
followed.  ISPs that subscribe to MAPS RBL are saying that they believe
that open relays should not exist, that MAPS should be able to test for this
condition, and that they don't want to receive e-mail from non-compliant
hosts.  If you think this is a bad "law", then you'll need to convince enough
of the rest of the population at large of such, and then perhaps ISPs will 
unsubscribe from the MAPS RBL.


On Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:36:15PM -0400, Robert Sharp wrote:
> OK Let me start again.  Lets go over some assumptions I made the first time that
> obviously need to be restated.
> 1)  MAPS is a single self appoint law enforcement agency on the INTERNET.  Don't argue
> until you hear me out.
> a) MAPS creates the LAW, ie. no open relay
> b) MAPS enforces the law and if you don't let them scan your machine you are
> automatically assumed guilty.  Last I checked you needed a warrent and some proof to do
> that, one easily forgable email header is not proof, in any universe.
>     ie.  You create a mailserver, you don't allow MAPS to probe it, you are placed on
> the list, by someone for nomination, because they think they were SPAMMED by you.  Were
> they spammed? maybe, maybe not,  some people give out their email address on every
> webform they can find and don't click the right check box ect and are placed on this
> list.  Perhaps no ONE peice of spam has ever graced you machine, you are still guilty.
> I have heard the arguement, how can maps tell if you are an open relay if you don't let
> them scan.  Well you can't sorry, not everything in the world can go your way...  I
> know this means in fact this arguement may not go my way.  Again I am willing to accept
> it, but I will not buckle to comment of about my intellect and my lack of  being
> informed as defeat.  It's simple not true.
> c)MAPS sentences you.  You are placed on this LIST rather or not you are actually
> generating spam.  This is a case of the ends justifiys the means.
> A few netizens of NANOG don't understand my point.   The IDEA of maps isn't a bad
> idea,  the idea of summarily judging a server and causing people who are using legimate
> use problems is wrong.  I am not saying this is the norm, but it obiviously seems that
> some people have questioned the MAPS "way" and have had it fall on deaf  MAP'S ears. I
> don't like the IDEA of one person controlling the show.  I would rather have a
> commitee, create the rules and see it enforced.
> And if you use the MAPS list by your choice you are most definetly filtering out email
> or traffic for people who are legitimate.  I know I have been filtered before.  MAPS is
> using a very large hammer to kill a not so large bug.
> In conclusion.  I HATE spam like everyone else.  I am just opposed to the solution that
> seems to keep gaining acceptance.  And I have been asked by many other people on and
> off list to spot expressing my obviously un informed views.  We let me say that asking,
> rather demanding, I stop questioning this is dead wrong and if people didn't question
> ideas we would still thing the earth was flat and we were the center of the universe.
> Regards,
> Rob
> Valdis.Kletnieks at wrote:
> > On Wed, 23 May 2001 12:57:24 EDT, Robert Sharp said:
> > > I like how MAPS is allowed to black hole your machines and their traffic.  But if
> > > you deny them access to your network resource as they are you are automatically
> > > assumed a spammer.  Wait you don't believe the same things we do, well you must
> > > be the enemy.
> >
> > I like how people like to rant without correlation to reality.  MAPS doesn't
> > blackhole your machines.  *I* blackhole your machines, based on *MY* decision
> > that if you're listed in MAPS, you're somebody I don't want to talk to.
> >
> > Until you get that little detail straight, all your pissing and moaning
> > about MAPS is just that - pissing and moaning.  You can complain to MAPS
> > about being listed in their database, or you can complain to me about my
> > black holing your traffic because I found you listed in MAPS.  But you can't
> > complain about MAPS black holing you because they don't.
> >
> > Using a clue for more than 20 seconds would show that MAPS *CANT* blackhole
> > your traffic themselves - if they did, HOW WOULD THEY TEST THAT YOU"D CLOSED
> > --
> >                                 Valdis Kletnieks
> >                                 Operating Systems Analyst
> >                                 Virginia Tech
> >
> >   ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >    Part 1.2Type: application/pgp-signature

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