California power ... unplugged.

Mike Leber mleber at he.net
Sun Apr 29 22:33:01 UTC 2001


On Sun, 29 Apr 2001, Christian Kuhtz wrote:
> If you factor it all in for the lifecycle of power generation method x, 
> nuclear power is considerably more expensive than any other power generation 
> method presently in use.

I find this unlikely since Canada is considering selling power to the
western US and they use nuclear.  Or they are just stupid?

> Did you know that Chernobyl has to be burried in concrete for the next 25k
> years (earliest halflife time of the elements burried in the plant)?  Where 
> were you or your ancestors 25k years ago?  

Does the fact that Bhopal occured mean that we shouldn't have chemical
processing plants anywhere in the world?

> Simply the facts around proper storage for very long periods of time (25k years
> or more) should be a hint at the problems around nuclear waste, even though
> it isn't an exhaustive one.

This is solved, although rather boringly.  Volumetrically, waste takes up
less space than the original mined material.  You wouldn't build houses on
either.  Both are buried materials.  How long does it take for a mountain
range to move?  longer than 25k years.

> I'm sure I'll just get yet another pointless flame back, but you're so wrong
> that I couldn't restraint myself not saying something about all this nonsense.

No flame here.  Back to the operational aspect.

So, on balance you feel coal is less harmful.  That is fine.  Others
disagree.  In any case not building power plants isn't a choice.  
California already ranks 48th lowest in power consumption per capita.  
So, now that you must chose, what type will you build?

Chosing not to build power plants in this case is effectively quitting the
game/getting out of the Internet business since you are already at 100%
capacity.  If you are in the western US this will effect you, whether you
form an opinion or not.

Mike.

> On Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 11:19:54AM -0700, Mike Leber wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, 28 Apr 2001, Roger Marquis wrote:
> > > No question nuclear is clean but only if you carefully ignore
> > > the danger of depleted uranium.  But I digress, that's a problem
> > > for future generations (if we're lucky).
> > 
> > Here is this wacky view point again... nuclear power plants don't
> > manufacture uranium.  It's not like the uranium used didn't exist before
> > it was mined.  Would you consider building a housing track in the middle
> > of a yellow cake uranium mineral deposit environmentally safe because it
> > is naturally occurring?
> > 
> > This is the "naturally occurring must be good" falacy.  Take radon gas for
> > example, though I digress...
> > 
> > Point is, either way future generations will have the same amount of
> > uranium or less.
> > 
> > I've allways found it hypocritical how antinuclear people support coal
> > burning power plants that release more material into the air than nuclear
> > power plants output.  I find it an interesting example of human social
> > studies.
> > 
> > This being considered, I've been wondering about whether Internet industry
> > lobbying organizations like CIX or the CISPA should have a energy policy.
> > My cynical side says that economic darwinism will ensure that people that
> > don't have an energy policy will end up in businesses that don't rely on
> > power.  i.e. You don't like power plants?  Don't worry, in a little more
> > time you won't have to worry about a job that depends as much on
> > electricity.  California has allways had a large amount of fruit picking
> > jobs.  ;)
> > 
> > Heh, when the availability and price of electricity start affecting
> > decisions involving your operations, you are being an ostritch if you
> > don't atleast examine the possible solutions and develop and opinion.
> > 
> > Mike. :)
> > 
> > > 
> > > Roger
> > > 
> > > > Sorry, but nukes are clean and safe. Sure people have died from nukes,
> > > > but millions have died from producing coal for plants. Why do we build
> > > > coal plants and not nukes? Because people don't care if OTHERS die, if
> > > > 100,000 people a year die from digging coal they are not in your
> > > > community, that is better then the risk to THEM however small.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > +------------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -------------------+
> > | Mike Leber             Direct Internet Connections     Voice 510 580 4100 |
> > | Hurricane Electric       Web Hosting  Colocation         Fax 510 580 4151 |
> > | mleber at he.net                                           http://www.he.net |
> > +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- 
> Christian Kuhtz <ck at arch.bellsouth.net> -wk, <ck at gnu.org> -hm
> Sr. Architect, Engineering & Architecture, BellSouth.net, Atlanta, GA, U.S.
> "I speak for myself only.""
> 

+------------------- H U R R I C A N E - E L E C T R I C -------------------+
| Mike Leber             Direct Internet Connections     Voice 510 580 4100 |
| Hurricane Electric       Web Hosting  Colocation         Fax 510 580 4151 |
| mleber at he.net                                           http://www.he.net |
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