ARIN whois

Derek J. Balling dredd at
Fri Nov 26 03:05:57 UTC 1999

Generally speaking, the people who run those relays that are open aren't
idiots, and when they notice the spamming they fix the relay. It's called
negative reinforcement, and -- aside from yourself -- it works rather


On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, Dean Anderson wrote:

> You missed the point.  ORBS is the source of information for spammers. They are inciting attacks.  I've got mail from Alan Brown inciting "script kiddies" to do just that.   Our problems with unauthorized relays started after being listed by ORBS. They incite the attacks. They are responsible for attacks.  We make sure the note this in our complaints the the FBI. 
> They advertise the list of relays on a web page to incite attacks against those relays.  They don't need to do this to block spam.
> 		--Dean
> Around 12:54 AM 11/25/1999 -0800, rumor has it that lists at said:
> >> I do know that ORBS is uncommonly good at blocking relays.   Much, much
> >> better than RBL. One admin I talked to recently told me about 8 of 10
> >> relayed spams were identified by ORBS.  Of course, is ORBS that good, or
> >> is ORBS actually the source of the relay attacks?
> >
> >This reasoning at least I can dispute.
> >
> >Due to my efforts to get a lot of my e-mail addresses in the hands of
> >spammers, I get 30,000 pieces of spam per month.  Examining only those, and
> >doing my own relay testing on IPs found in them, I discover 1,000 new open
> >relays per month actively sending me spam that I've never seen before and
> >are not yet listed in ORBS, and submit them.  I'm fairly certain that I'm
> >not the only one.  I have no reason to believe that ORBS accepts submissions
> >from people who are actively portscanning, as there doesn't seem to be a
> >reason to.  This method is effective enough.
> >
> >I've seen a lot of people giving ORBS shit for being too effective, and
> >listing relays within minutes or hours of someone spamming through them. 
> >They even sometimes get confused as to the timing, and see the ORBS warning
> >message prior to noticing that their servers are lagged, and thus think ORBS
> >is the cause.
> >
> >But I fail to see how this thread is remotely on topic.  Each site on the
> >net is fully capable of setting their own policy on which networks they want
> >to talk to.  If you disagree with Dean's policy and feel he's adversely
> >affecting your network, don't let his servers connect to yours.  He is
> >certainly free to do the reverse.  Theres no particular need to reach global
> >consensus; if enough people refuse to transact with a party due to their
> >policies, they may wish to change them.
> >
> >                   Aaron Hopkins
> >                   Chief Technical Officer
> >                   Cyberverse, Inc.
> >
> >
> >
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>            Plain Aviation, Inc                  dean at
>            LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Derek J. Balling          | "Bill Gates is a monocle and a white 
dredd at        |  fluffy cat from being a villain in the  |  next Bond film."  - Dennis Miller

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