Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC
chrism at raremedium.com
Sat Jan 23 11:03:04 UTC 1999
I've just recently had a case where a speculator charged a gullible client
thousands of dollars for a domain and then proceeded to do nothing when it
came time to update the records with the Internic. It literally took a
MONTH of forwarding notarized documents and then many follow-up calls to get
the Internic to update the record. By then, the client's web site had
From: Henry Linneweh <linneweh at concentric.net>
To: Jamie Norwood <mistwolf at ethereal.net>
Cc: Dean Anderson <dean at av8.com>; Phil Howard <phil at whistler.intur.net>;
pete at kruckenberg.com <pete at kruckenberg.com>; nanog at merit.edu
<nanog at merit.edu>
Date: Saturday, January 23, 1999 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: Incompetance abounds at the InterNIC
>I have personally seen charges as high as $3000.00 to recover a domain
>name from a speculator. I believe such prices gouging is a rip-off on the
>face value of it, and that it actually is harmful and harassing to a firms
>Henry R. Linneweh
>Jamie Norwood wrote:
>> On Fri, Jan 22, 1999 at 05:01:13PM -0500, Dean Anderson wrote:
>> > At 02:37 PM 1/22/1999 -0600, Phil Howard wrote:
>> > >Since many speculators actually do not pay, the claim can stand up
>> > But they do pay. They get money sent to Internic sooner in the case of
>> > lapsed registration. [or they motivate people to pay before they lapse]
>> > They get people to purchase domains they might not otherwise purchase,
>> > that they might not otherwise purchase NOW.
>> I don't see how this is true, unless I am missing something. They
>> domain, and charge, say, $100 for this. Since, to make a profit, they
>> have to charge more than InterNIC. Now, someone going for a domain held
>> this is likely gone looking for that domain, not the other way around.
>> So, say we have a domain, scalper.com. We really have 4 scenarios:
>> 1) Noone ever wants it or buys it.
>> 2) End-user wants it, registers with Internic.
>> 3) Speculator puts in a template on it and doesn't pay unless they get a
>> buyer. No buyer comes, it is recycled. Cost to speculator: $0.
>> impact? A server usage that they never get compensated for.
>> 4) Speculator buys it and sells it to end-user for $100, using part of
>> to pay InterNIC and part as profit. InterNIC gets payed and is happy,
>> but end-user pays $30 more than they would have if the speculator
>> never found it (scenario 2).
>> Now, as I see it, there is NO GOOD that comes from the speculator. Since
>> in reality they do this for hundreds, if not more, domains, and I am
>> to bet they sell at most 10% of the domains they register, they are
>> a high burden to InterNIC's servers, with no return. The domains would
>> sell just as easily without the speculator, and InterNIC would not have
>> to copensate for hundred of domain creations that they will .never. see
>> payment for. The speculator, of course, makes out the best; they have no
>> overhead, and make pure profit. Pretty sweet deal, maybe I should try it!
>> > The costs of the non-completed registrations is trivial. So speculators
>> > make a net-profit for NSI.
>> See above. The net-profit they claim to offer is proft Internic would get
>> just as well without them, and without the server overhead of a few
>> domains that will never be paid for.
>> > > But if the crunch of templates is blocking _my_ couple of
>> > >templates from getting processed in under a week, then I really do
>> > >them to apply some temporary fix now to _this_ system so that do have
>> > >breathing room to put a better system into place.
>> > Except that you (and everyone) get worse service after the proposed
>> > changes. It will take everyone longer to get domains registered. And
>> > will have less information that you need to work (like on-hold status).
>> > [point gun at foot, pull trigger]
>> Someone proposed the concept of having accounts with them, where your
>> billing info is on file so that you could register, and be billed that
>> way, and still keep the benefits of both pre-pay and post-pay systems.
>> > >This war has probably resulted in "registration spam" where the
>> > >submits repeated templates, perhaps once per day, to re-register that
>> > >hoping to narrow the window in which it is available to others.
>> > This makes no sense. I don't believe they re-register the same domain
>> > next day. Once registered, its good for at least 30 days, and the
>> > date is on the record. Re-registering sooner than creation + 30
>> > have any effect unless NSI starts trying to ignore speculator
>> > registrations. Then I could see them trying to register it again the
>> > day with a different name. But if that is the case, then NSI caused the
>> > flood by their own stupidity. That cannot be blamed on speculators.
>> Why wouldn't they, if they don't know when a domain will expire? What
>> is it to them, who likely have nice little scripts that do all the work
>> anyway. They have no reason .not. to do so.
>> > >The costs to speculators is on par with the costs to spammers.
>> > make
>> > >it easy to do.
>> > Actually, all you are saying is that the cost of an email message is on
>> > with the cost of a database transaction. I'll agree, and won't argue
>> > costs, because a bunch of us promised not to. While the comparision to
>> > is very obvious in many ways, please don't make spam comparisons. We
>> > argue this without reference to spam. Enough said about that.
>> > Computers make it easy for NSI, too. $35.00 pays for a lot of
>> > cycles. There really can be hundreds of thousands of misses per one
>> > registration.
>> It .could., but does it?
>> > Not having delayed/canceled payment, immediate registration hurts
>> > including me. When I sell a web-host, they want it up today. I suppose
>> > everyone else has to wait 30 days, it won't be any worse than, say
>> > line delays, and if everyone has the same constraint, the playing field
>> > level, so it shouldn't cost business. [actually, thats not true, since
>> > selling something sooner means more revenue in a year--that's why we
>> > those marketing/sales folks. They get people to buy things now instead
>> > next month. That makes a big difference.]
>> See above. Give InterNIC a nice deposit to be allowed to pre-pay. No
>> no reg until they have the money.
>> > And you are complaining about delays. Presumably, everyone experiences
>> > same delays. Yet, you propose increasing the delays, and then that
>> > won't stop speculators. So what is the point? How is the system
>> > It isn't.
>> But I agree, while it won't stop them, it will at least make them
>> I don't consider it contribution when they have extremely little
>> expenses and a high amount of profit. Make them pay for .every. domain
>> register, and I don't care if they resell it. Also, when you think about
>> niw they can register a few hundred domains at no cost, unless someone
>> it from them. But if to register those same 300, say, domains, will cost
>> them $2100, they will be a lot more hesitant, since it would be very easy
>> if you are unlucky to loose a couple thousand dollars.
>> > But then, speculators are just a scapegoat. By definition, eliminating
>> > scapegoat doesn't fix the problem. It just diverts attention from the
>> > embarrasing, real problem. That's how I conclude they are just a
>> The best scapegoats are the people who really are problems. But making
>> go away won't clear or hide all the problems, and it will be easier to
>> forward with fixing the other problems when they have one less excuse to
>> use on us.
>> > >It's certainly convenient to pay later. But it's not that great of a
>> > >difference to me.
>> > Then why are you complaining that it takes weeks to register a domain?
>> > Clearly, if these so-called anti-speculation changes are made, it will
>> > always takes weeks to register a domain. You are shooting yourself in
>> > foot because you are afraid someone might step on your toe.
>> Again, combine the two. Any ISP who is that worried should have no
>> keeping a $1000 account with Internic for domains. And even that much is
>> assuming you sign up bunches of domains every day. Real people should
>> less. There are solutions that will work. I, personally, would rather
>> pay by credit card and add a few hours to the time, than keep domain
>> scalpers and wait a week or more.
>> > --Dean
>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> > Plain Aviation, Inc dean at av8.com
>> > LAN/WAN/UNIX/NT/TCPIP http://www.av8.com
>> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> Who likely should have remained lurking, but is tired and cranky.
More information about the NANOG