[Nanog-futures] 2010.06.13 NANOG49 community meeting notes

Matthew Petach mpetach at netflight.com
Mon Jun 14 02:20:39 UTC 2010

As these apply more to the nanog-meta-discussion, I'm posting them
here.  If people feel they might be applicable for the general membership,
let me know, and I'll post them there as well.


2010.06.13 NANOG 49 community meeting

[I just want to say the IPv6 hi-def stream was
*wonderful* to watch this time around--thanks
to the people who pulled that off!]

Steve Feldman calls the room to order at 1753 hours
Pacific time.

Welcome to NANOG 49 community meeting.

steering comitte report
program comittee report
communications committee report
marketing working group report
merit report
transition update

Steve Feldman, Dave Meyer, Mike Smith, Chris Quesada,
Andy Resnzweig,
transition team

Steering committee report -- steve feldman
blue badge folks
steve feldman, patrick gilmore, sylvie lapierre, david,
joe, andy, robert, mike, duane

highlights since nanog 48
marketing working on additional sponsorships
all but one breakfast break sold out (or one break,
period), fullest yet.
Postel scholarships being worked on, 6/20 is
deadline, after which they decide who gets to come
to the fall meeting, and educate people back home.

Welcome mike smith, new program committee chair,
some condolences given.

Preparation for this and future meetings worked on,
hosts and contracts through end of 2011 now, will
soon start on 2012.

Working on transition stuffs as well.

After nanog49,
will work on finalizing Postel scholarship
continue momentum on marketing sponsorships
check out the collaboration room
work on 2011/2012, transition work

Mailing lists:
nanog at nanog.org main operations list
nanog-futures at nanog.org meta-discussions about NANOG
nanog-attendee at nanog.org meeting attendees only
nanog-support at nanog.org
steering at nanog.org
nanogpc at nanog.org
admins at nanog.org
marketing at nanog.org

David Meyer
Program Committee
nanogpc at nanog.org
Committee members:
cathy, nina, larry, jim, tom, brian, igor, barry, mike,
mohit, sylvie, david, chris, kevin, dani, sonia, tom,

Lots of submissions for this meeting, hard to fit
them in; if you want lots of statistics about that,
bug a PC member.  :D

Communications Committee Report
Randy Epstein
Joe, Kris, Sue, Michael, Tim,
6 out of 600 messages moderated, 3 people with
posting privs revoked.
Look for red stickers to talk to them, or email
admins at nanog.org

Any questions?
Q via AIM: is there a jabber room or other way for
people to ask questions remotely?
A: We'll defer that to the communications committee...
uh, no jabber room, but that's simply because there
is no mandate yet...so, RS volunteers to watch AIM
for questions, IM him at ke4djt with your questions

Marketing working group
Greg Dendy
Greg, Patrick, Misako, Christopher, Andy, DAve, Carol,

Schedule is full of sponsorships, breaks, beer and gear,

Marketing group goes out and tries to solicit sponsors
from vendors, member companies, etc.
Also set up the vendor collaboration room; visit it,
see what's there, put cards in, and enter for door

marketing at nanog.org

Merit report, Andy
Thanks to NANOG host, Netflix, esp. to Dave Temkin,
and his help on finding sponsors.

Netflix is also providing IP bandwidth, Internet2
provided access points,
Sponsors provided food, as well as beer and gear.

Merit team
Larry Blunk, David Gilbertson, Sue Joiner,
Dawn Khan, Carol Wadsowrth, Michael Zawacki

Nanog48 -- Austin stats, (vs SFO)
452 total, 561 total in SFO, up to 580
353 Paid (466)
99 waived (host, sponsor, presenter, Merit on-site staff (95)
125 newcomers (28%)

NANOG48, just about break even financially.

NANOG50, Atlanta, TelX, with ARIN
NANOG51, Miami, Terremark
NANOG52, Denver, Alcatel-Lucent

Web site and mailing list will have brief outage this
summer as servers are relocated; date/time to be announced.

NANOG transition.
A long-term vision for the NANOG community

Will give an overview tonight, and then tomorrow will
dig more into nitty gritty details.

Rules of engagement
thanks to Sylvie for putting the slides together.
SC wishes to present a long-term vision to the NANOG
Sundy, short meeting
Monday at BOF, much longer presentation

The NANOG now
proposed mission
proposed status and governance

Now--provides forum for sharing of knowledge, information,
and education for north american inteernet opererations

we do that through big conferences like this, and through
mailing lists.
merit does hosting of mailing list machines, etc.
NANOG is an activity of Merit Networks, a 501(c)3
non-profit corporation, which limits some of the
activities they can engage in.
Merit's primary responsibility is to their membership,
which has implications on what NANOG can do.

NANOG has migrated towards self-governance, starting
in 2005 with the new charter.

 created program committee
 created communications committee to handle mailing lists
 created marketing working group, to work towards sustainable

Why change?
working self-governance model, but limited ability to act.
Desire to contain changes within Merit's budget cycles
 July1 to June 30
  Current merit fiscal includes N47, 48, 49
  Merit has hotel contracts for N50, N51 hotels

So, this is trying to coordinate with Merit's
 June 30th budget cutover for next year.

Believe it is time for NANOG to become autonomous
 independent legal entity
 indepedent funding
 financial management and control
 members as owners
  (NANOG members, rather than Merit members)

Brief flow chart that doesn't fit all the way on
the screen.
Legal status, will move to NewNOG, Inc, a new 501(c)3
non-profit corporation
it will get a new board of directors
Funding will move to membership funding, and activity
 based sponsorships, with a goal to have more general
 sponsorship as well as specific activity based sponsorship
Financial reporting will move to Financial accountability
 to the community; currently, just another item on the
 general Merit books, without separate accounting.
Staffing will shift from Merit Staff to limited paid
 staff and contracted services

Steve notes Merit has done a wonderful job with the staffing,
this is not a reflection on their handling of the staffing
to date.

New staffing will be executive director, one or two paid
staff, most contracted out; don't need dedicated staff
to run three meetings a year.

Proposed Mission statement stays the same.
keep organizing conferences, and running mailing list.
Believe to expand into other areas; jabber room for
 online interaction
 publications, certifications, moving towards a group
  of professionals aimed at educating members.

Governance--newNOG Inc, is a new, non-profit corporation
which has been created; it is a transitional entity,
it is not expected to exist in 2 or 3 years once the
transfer of intelllectual property details are worked

Board of Directors consists of 6 elected steering
committee members right now; eventually will mirror
current leadership.

Want to increase membership by decoupling membership
 from meeting attendance.

Funding by
 sponsor organizations/Contributors

 current NANOG voting membership population
  (those of you here, and those who have attended
   meeting in the past year)
 parallel vote to be held October, 2010
  quite a bit of work still ahead of us
 Fill expiring NewNOG board seats
 Ratify NewNOG by-laws

this is a model for handling the transition, not
necessarily the final model.

This is the time to bring up concerns, questions, etc.
over the next few days.

Some other ideas being discussed
bigger membership--people who would like to vote, who
are active on the mailing list, but are unable to attend
Annual paid dues of some form?
discounted memberships for students?
Members get voting rights in NewNOG elections
possible meeting discounts, subscription plans
future benefits to be decided by community

 revise sponsorship and hosting model
 hotel contract negotiation via agent
 contracted registration management
 contracted onsite logistics (wireless network,

 contracted hosting
 keep community mangement

contracted/outsourced with performance obligations

Timeline that is proposed:
Merit runs the meetings through NANOG51, and NewNOG
would take over NANOG52, in Denver.
Merit will finish out the existing hotel contracts.
Red line in October when election will be held, and
all this will try to happen.
Denver meeting, NewNOG would take over the running
of the meeting; possibly contract Merit to handle
outsourcing for that meeting.

NANOG53, explore other vendors, see what other
approaches to hosting the meeting may arise; Merit
may bid in competitive bidding status for those

NewNOG has contract for NANOG52.
ARIN signed contract for NANOG53 hotel, many thanks
to ARIN for going out on that limb.
2012, planning will start shortly.

How can you shape the vision
Join the governance WG--Steve Gibbard, Dave Barak, Betty Burke
Join the membership WG--Kris Foster, Bill Woodcock, Ren Provo
Join the Funding/Sponsorship ($$$) WG --Chris Quesada
Join the Finance/Budget WG--Dan Golding, Todd Underwood,
  Tom Daly, Sylvie LaPierre
Join the Conference/Event Planning WG -- Open/Executive
Join the Technical Transition Services WG -- Richard
 Steenberger, Rob Seastrom, Tom Scholl

If you'd like to volunteer, talk to any of the people
listed, or send email to board at newnog.org

Would like to give Dawn and opportunity to say a
few words while Bill stands and waits.

Dawn, many of you saw his posting on nanog-futures.
Many at Merit think they can run NANOG very well;
if they wanted to fight it, they'd have to fight
with the people who run the community; so they've
decided to help with the transition; they'd like
to avoid debate with community members, and will
work to support it as best as they can.

Steve Feldman notes it's a disagreement among friends
as to whether it's the right move, but both sides agree
that it's best to approach it civilly.

Q: Will term limits of NANOG carry over to NewNOG?
A: Yes, NewNOG will continue those term limits.

Q: What about resources, like IP space?
A: Check the letters on newnog.org, those will
   stay with Merit, and we'll apply for a microallocation.

Q: Why only 10 minutes?
A: More time is allocated during the BOF tomorrow; this
   meeting actually didn't have a set time.

Q: Bill Norton--he shared on the mailing list that even
at one of the first SC meetings, they noted that being
an advisor to Merit did have some limitations even back
So, Q1: is this a done deal?
A1: it's not a done deal, but we're well down the path
on making it happen; but if there's a huge outcry, it
could be changed; if the wrong set of people are in
charge, they can be swapped out, etc.
Until October election, there is room for change;
but contracts are being put in place that become
harder and harder to reverse.
Q2: it would be good to see financials; there are
things already in place that will have replacement
costs, but we don't know how much it will costs to
put this new overarching entity in place.
A2: new proforma budget will be shared in the BoF
tomorrow; they haven't been included in this slide
deck because they thought the room was time limited

A: To comment on Bill's question--there's some
politics going on here, on both sides; through
the transition, people do have to be a bit
delicate.  We don't know how Merit spent every
penny, but comparing it to other conferences,
it's not clear there's additional efficiencies
Merit can squeeze out; Betty has already squezed
out a lot of inefficiencies in the past 2 or 3
We won't get into a situation where it should
cost a huge amount more than what it cost under
Merit; we should be able to get similar numbers
by working with professional conference managers.
Based on comparisons with other conferences, we
feel we should be able to do this without needing
a great deal of additional money.

Q: Why is there a need for $30,000 to transfer the
NANOG name?  Should we come up with a new name,
as our appraisal of the NANOG name says it's
worth about $340.
A: To avoid conflict of interest, they approached
the University of Merit, and asked, and the domain
and name were valued at between $30,000 and $50,000.
So, to be fair, and to protect both organizations,
the pricing that was mentioned previously will be
honored.  This is to ensure that a documented
exchange of value takes place that protects both

Q: Randy Bush doesn't care what it's called--call
it FrakMerit for all he cares.
freakanomics folks says banking should be boring;
this should be in that category; it should be
boring, and not something we should need to worry
Having this happen in community meeting is fine;
but he came for technical content; taking up
technical discussion time during BOFs to talk about
silly business crap doesn't make him happy.  We put you
up there to make it work; we want to do networking,
you go do business 0.5.

Q: Paul Vixie--he heard Bill's question--is this a
done deal?  ARIN signed a contract to help facilitate
this; it was not meant to indicate that it *should*
happen, they have that hotel contract as a liability
on their books, hopefully *someone* will come fill
the room and sell seats, as otherwise they're out
quite a bit of money.

Q: Joel Jaegli, having watched the governance and
process has been interesting; we get one shot, we
vote at the October meeting, so we need the constructs
to be in front of us before then so we can vote on
the new charter then.
Since we have long-term future liabilities on hotel
contracts being booked, we will quickly arrive at
point of no return for end of 2011 or beginning
of 2012, and it will be on someone's books.
A: Actually, June of 2011 hotel is already on this
newNOG's books, so there are already financial

Q: Duncan...this all breaks down to why--no statement
of vision of what newNOG wants to be 2-3 years down
the line; there are financial implications hitting,
but there's no statement of what the bet is and what
the payout will be to making this change.
Where will this be in 2-3 years time, after it's all
been firing on all cylinders?
A: To answer about liabilities, they already existed
in the past; Merit assumed them in the past which let
them to make decisions about one host over another,
or shift schedules around based on their control over
the contract liability, etc.  That meant the SC had
very little input about the meetings.
Now, with newNOG bearing those liabilities, it allows
the SC to make decisions about dates, locations, and
hosts without being subservient to Merit's financial
interests and membership.  Nobody here is a Merit
member, they have their own mission, they have their
own financial responsibilities.
A: Todd answers the why-now bit.  Nanog governance has
reached democratic self-sustanance, with 2 or 3 swapouts
of leadership since the new charter was put in place.
People now have a mature belief that our self-governance
will continue, regardless of which people are in place.
We pushed Merit hard to plan hotels further in advance
so we can plan our schedules further in advance; but
that puts more liability on Merit's books, which makes
them more and more nervous, and pushes back harder
against the increased liabilities involved.
A: It's much better to be doing this now when things
are relatively calm and peaceful, than during a period
of turmoil.  Doing this in 2005 would have been very
difficult, for example.

Q: You've talked about what's happened in the past, and
what will change; but what's the future payoff, beside
the payoff of the freedom to do what we want?
A: That *is* the payoff; the ability to have more
flexible sponsorship models, different number of
meetings a year, document, trainings, etc.
short-term, the goal is to not destroy what we have now,
to not break the structure while we do that transition.

Q: Vijay, agree with Randy, we trust you, execute as
you see fit, if we don't like it, we'll vote you out.
What would make life easier for him, is to provide
information about sensitivity models as they are
perturbed; if attendance drops to 300, what is the
financial model, for example?  Can those financial
sensitivty models be posted?

Q: Randy Bush was on first steering committee, these
issues have been going on for a long time, why wasn't
this done sooner?
Merit has their own goals, and they acheive those goals
well; but those are not NANOG goals, and sometimes
they come into conflict.
There was a NANOG meeting that was scheduled in conflict
with other NOG and RIR meeting, to avoid conflict with
a Merit meeting, for example; that was the type of thing
that happens when goals are in conflict.
People up there are worried about breaking things; but
some things should be changed, or be able to break.
We've scheduled meetings based on finding hosts, and
we have meetings where few people show up, because it's
hosted in the middle of nowhere, and then we have meetings
where many people actually show up; if we govern ourselves,
we can aim for more appropriate venues.
Membership plus attendance, many other orgs follow
that model already.

Q: Patrick notes Sylvie and others have a model already
that will let you perturb and see how the model survives.
The BoF will have access to many more of those details.

Q: People need to brainstorm more about future
opportunties; BCP plans, outreach, etc.  Think
a year or two out, when the transition is done,
what would you like to see, so that people can
start working on it now?
If people want to start a network education core
curriculum, for example, people should start working
on it now.

Q: Patrick, text message, new comment; you people are
impressive, reminder that for people who just come
to meeting, and don't come to community meeting,
this should be a no-op; if you actually care, come
to one of the working groups, and work to change

Q: Leo Bicknell, this is a natural progression; why
now, you have to have people in place who want to
make it happen; if it's happening now, that means
we have the right people in place to make it happen.
In meetings in past, he's heard of things going very
wrong at some meetings, causing things to go in the
red for particular meetings.  What is the planning
or reassurances in case really bad things happen
during the embroynic stages of the organization?
A: Conference cancellation insurance can be purchased,
and they are folded into the budget for horrific
Q1: Right now, Merit brings a reserve to the table;
as we book further out, our liability goes higher
and higher.
A: Thank you for volunteering for the finance
committee, Leo--and Vijay, we know you were a
business major!

Q: RS, relaying for Dinesh; as an outsider, his view
is that independence *is* the payoff; we have come a
long way, let's look forward, not to the past.

No other questions, so Steve wraps up noting his
main role is to herd cats.  Many thanks to those who
have provided input; please keep it going!
Goal is to create an organization that is self
sustaining over time.  They have started by creating
a non-profit with some by-laws and an initial
governance, to keep things functioning for the
Thanks to everyone out there for supporting them
during this effort!

Social tonight, across the street at 8, please
attend, it's in the agenda guide, Harry Denton's
Starlight Room.

Meeting wraps up at 1908 hours Pacific time.

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