Netflix VPN detection - actual engineer needed

Fri Jun 3 20:41:57 UTC 2016

Apple TVs get their location indoors using the same method they use for
other iOS devices when indoors - wifi ssid/Mac scanning.

Non-iOS devices are often capable of this as well.

(As someone that spends >67% of his time underground and whose Apple TV
requests my location from my underground bedroom and is very accurate)

On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 4:36 PM Naslund, Steve <SNaslund at medline.com> wrote:

> Their app could request your devices location.  Problem is a lot of
> devices (like TVs, Apple TVs, most DVD player, i.e. device with built in
> Netflix) don't know where they are and it cannot easily be added (indoor
> GPS is still difficult/expensive) and even if they could should they be
> believed.  I think the bigger issue is whether any kind of regional
> controls are enforceable or effective any more.
>
> Steven Naslund
> Chicago IL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces at nanog.org] On Behalf Of Cryptographrix
> Sent: Friday, June 03, 2016 3:21 PM
> To: Spencer Ryan
> Cc: North American Network Operators' Group
> Subject: Re: Netflix VPN detection - actual engineer needed
>
> Come now, content providers really just care that they have access to
> regional controls more so than their ability to blanket-deny access (ok,
> minus the MLB who are just insane).
>
> And part of those regional controls deal with the accuracy of the location
> information.
>
> If their app can request my device's precise location, it doesn't need to
> infer my location from my IP any more.
>
> As a matter of fact, it's only detrimental to them for it to do so,
> because of the lack of accuracy from geo databases and the various reasons
> that people use VPNs nowadays (i.e. for some devices that you can't even
> turn VPN connections off for - OR in the case of IPv6, when you can't reach
> a segment of the Internet without it).
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 4:17 PM Spencer Ryan <sryan at arbor.net> wrote:
>
> > There is a large difference between "the VPN run at your house" and
> > "Arguably the most popular, free, mostly anonymous tunnel broker service"
> >
> > If it were up to the content providers, they probably would block any
> > IP they saw a VPN server listening on.
> >
> >
> > *Spencer Ryan* | Senior Systems Administrator | sryan at arbor.net *Arbor
> > Networks*
> > +1.734.794.5033 (d) | +1.734.846.2053 (m)
> > www.arbornetworks.com
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 4:09 PM, Cryptographrix
> > <cryptographrix at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I have a VPN connection at my house. There's no way for them to know
> >> the difference between me using my home network connection from Hong
> >> Kong or my home network connection from my house.
> >>
> >> Are they going to disable connectivity from everywhere they can
> >> detect an open VPN port to, also?
> >>
> >> If they trust my v4 address, they can use that to establish
> >> historical reference. Additionally, they can fail over to v4 if they
> >> do not trust the
> >> v6 address.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 4:05 PM Spencer Ryan <sryan at arbor.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> There is no way for Netflix to know the difference between you being
> >>> in NY and using the tunnel, and you living in Hong Kong and using the
> tunnel.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> *Spencer Ryan* | Senior Systems Administrator | sryan at arbor.net
> >>> *Arbor Networks*
> >>> +1.734.794.5033 (d) | +1.734.846.2053 (m)
> >>> www.arbornetworks.com
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Cryptographrix
> >>> <cryptographrix at gmail.com
> >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Same, but until there's a real IPv6 presence in the US, it's really
> >>>> annoying that they haven't come up with some fix for this.
> >>>>
> >>>> I have no plans to turn off IPv6 at home - I actually have many
> >>>> uses for it, and as much as I dislike the controversy around it,
> >>>> think that adoption needs to be prioritized, not penalized.
> >>>>
> >>>> Additionally, I think that discussing content provider control over
> >>>> regional decisions isn't productive to the conversation, as they
> >>>> didn't build the banhammer (wouldn't you want to control your own
> >>>> content if you had made content specific to regional laws etc?).
> >>>>
> >>>> I.e. - not all shows need to have regional restrictions between New
> >>>> York (where I live) and California (where my IPv6 /64 says I live).
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm able to watch House in the any state in the U.S.? Great -
> >>>> ignore my intra-US proxy connection.
> >>>>
> >>>> My Netflix account randomly tries to connect from Tokyo because I
> >>>> forgot to shut off my work VPN? Fine....let me know and I'll turn
> >>>> *that* off.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 3:49 PM Spencer Ryan <sryan at arbor.net> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I don't blame them for blocking a (effectively) anonymous tunnel
> >>>>> broker. I'm sure their content providers are forcing their hand.
> >>>>> On Jun 3, 2016 3:46 PM, "Cryptographrix"
> >>>>> <cryptographrix at gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Netflix needs to figure out a fix for this until ISPs actually
> >>>>>> provide IPv6 natively.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 3:13 PM Blair Trosper
> >>>>>> <blair.trosper at gmail.com
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> > Confirmed that Hurricane Electric's TunnelBroker is now blocked
> >>>>>> > by Netflix.  Anyone nice people from Netflix perhaps want to
> >>>>>> > take a
> >>>>>> crack at
> >>>>>> > this?
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > On Thu, Jun 2, 2016 at 2:15 PM, <mike.hyde1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>> > > Had the same problem at my house, but it was caused by the
> >>>>>> > > IPv6
> >>>>>> > connection
> >>>>>> > > to HE.  Turned of V6 and the device worked.
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > --
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > Sent with Airmail
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > On June 1, 2016 at 10:29:03 PM, Matthew Kaufman (
> >>>>>> matthew at matthew.at)
> >>>>>> > > wrote:
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > Every device in my house is blocked from Netflix this evening
> >>>>>> > > due
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> > > their new "VPN blocker". My house is on my own IP space, and
> >>>>>> > > the
> >>>>>> outside
> >>>>>> > > of the NAT that the family devices are on is 198.202.199.254,
> >>>>>> announced
> >>>>>> > > by AS 11994. A simple ping from Netflix HQ in Los Gatos to my
> >>>>>> house
> >>>>>> > > should show that I'm no farther away than Santa Cruz, CA as
> >>>>>> microwaves
> >>>>>> > > fly.
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > Unfortunately, when one calls Netflix support to talk about
> >>>>>> > > this,
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> > > only response is to say "call your ISP and have them turn off
> >>>>>> > > the
> >>>>>> VPN
> >>>>>> > > software they've added to your account". And they absolutely
> >>>>>> refuse to
> >>>>>> > > escalate. Even if you tell them that you are essentially your
> >>>>>> > > own
> >>>>>> ISP.
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > So... where's the Netflix network engineer on the list who
> >>>>>> > > all of
> >>>>>> us can
> >>>>>> > > send these issues to directly?
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> > > Matthew Kaufman
> >>>>>> > >
> >>>>>> >
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >
>