AW: AW: /27 the new /24

Sat Oct 3 09:32:11 UTC 2015

Hi Mike,

it's not a bureaucracy problem ... if you're a big player and you have to decide about a 2-3 Mio invest to upgrade only a few of your POPs (and let's say you have hundreds of POPs) it will be hard to find the "right" decision.

Some questions  these decision makers have to think about:

#) What are the future plans for this POP?
#) How upgradeable / expandable is the new equipment?
#) Does our engineers know everything they need to run & debug & fix this new equipment?
#) TOC incl support contract over the complete lifetime?
#) Product life cycle? (Is it outdated in two years??)
#) Will we keep spare parts onsite or nearby?
#) How long needs the vendor to deliver everything I need?
#) Is it compatible with all the already installed equipment?
#) Migration plan to move existing customers to the new equipment?

There are a ton of additional questions ... but I guess I pointed out some of the most important. Big players can't only calculate the price of the equipment - most of the time all the surrounding stuff (installation, new cabinets, migrations, training of engineers, etc) is producing 0,5x to 1x of the equipment costs. To get some easy numbers: take the discounted price (no one pays list prices ...) of an equipment and take this price x2 => that will be a realistic number to get the box onsite, up and running.

It's not all the time something simple like a router with 20 patch cords :(.

Best regards

Jürgen Jaritsch
Head of Network & Infrastructure

ANEXIA Internetdienstleistungs GmbH

Telefon: +43-5-0556-300
Telefax: +43-5-0556-500

E-Mail: JJaritsch at anexia-it.com 
Web: http://www.anexia-it.com 

Anschrift Hauptsitz Klagenfurt: Feldkirchnerstraße 140, 9020 Klagenfurt
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Windbichler
Firmenbuch: FN 289918a | Gerichtsstand: Klagenfurt | UID-Nummer: AT U63216601

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces at nanog.org] Im Auftrag von Mike Hammett
Gesendet: Samstag, 03. Oktober 2015 04:53
Cc: NANOG <nanog at nanog.org>
Betreff: Re: AW: /27 the new /24

A better truth may be that I have no idea about bureaucracies... which I'll happily admit to. 

----- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Jürgen Jaritsch" <jj at anexia.at> 
To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog at ics-il.net>, "NANOG" <nanog at nanog.org> 
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2015 2:25:10 PM 
Subject: AW: /27 the new /24 

> Stop using old shit. 

Sorry, but the truth is: you have no idea about how earning revenue works and you obviously also have no idea about carrier grade networks. 

Jürgen Jaritsch 
Head of Network & Infrastructure 

ANEXIA Internetdienstleistungs GmbH 

Telefon: +43-5-0556-300 
Telefax: +43-5-0556-500 

E-Mail: JJaritsch at anexia-it.com 
Web: http://www.anexia-it.com 

Anschrift Hauptsitz Klagenfurt: Feldkirchnerstraße 140, 9020 Klagenfurt 
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Windbichler 
Firmenbuch: FN 289918a | Gerichtsstand: Klagenfurt | UID-Nummer: AT U63216601 

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- 
Von: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces at nanog.org] Im Auftrag von Mike Hammett 
Gesendet: Freitag, 02. Oktober 2015 20:38 
An: NANOG <nanog at nanog.org> 
Betreff: Re: /27 the new /24 

Chances are the revenue passing scales to some degree as well. Small business with small bandwidth needs buys small and has small revenue. Big business with big bandwidth needs buys big and has big revenue to support big router. 

I can think of no reason why ten years goes by and you haven't had a need to throw out the old network for new. If your business hasn't scaled with the times, then you need to get rid of your Cat 6500 and get something more power, space, heat, etc. efficient. 

I saw someone replace a stack of Mikrotik CCRs with a pair of old Cisco routers. I don't know what they were at the moment, but they had GBICs, so they weren't exactly new. Each router had two 2500w power supplies. They'll be worse in every way (other than *possibly* BGP convergence). The old setup consumed at most 300 watts. The new setup requires $500/month in power... and is worse. 

Stop using old shit. 

----- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

Midwest Internet Exchange 
http://www.midwest-ix.com 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "William Herrin" <bill at herrin.us> 
To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog at ics-il.net> 
Cc: "NANOG" <nanog at nanog.org> 
Sent: Friday, October 2, 2015 1:09:16 PM 
Subject: Re: /27 the new /24 

On Fri, Oct 2, 2015 at 11:50 AM, Mike Hammett <nanog at ics-il.net> wrote: 
> How many routers out there have this limitation? A $100 router 
> I bought ten years ago could manage many full tables. If 
> someone's network can't match that today, should I really have 
> any pity for them? 

Hi Mike, 

The technology doesn't work the way you think it does. Or more 
precisely, it only works the way you think it does on small (cheap) 
end-user routers. Those routers do everything in software on a 
general-purpose CPU using radix tries for the forwarding table (FIB). 
They don't have to (and can't) handle both high data rates and large 
routing tables at the same time. 

For a better understanding how the big iron works, check out 
https://www.pagiamtzis.com/cam/camintro/ . You'll occasionally see 
folks here talk about TCAM. This stands for Ternary Content 
Addressable Memory. It's a special circuit, different from DRAM and 
SRAM, used by most (but not all) big iron routers. The TCAM permits an 
O(1) route lookup instead of an O(log n) lookup. The architectural 
differences which balloon from there move the router cost from your 
$100 router into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. 

Your BGP advertisement doesn't just have to be carried on your $100 
router. It also has to be carried on the half-million-dollar routers. 
That makes it expensive. 

Though out of date, this paper should help you better understand the 
systemic cost of a BGP route advertisement: 
http://bill.herrin.us/network/bgpcost.html 

Regards, 
Bill Herrin 

-- 
William Herrin ................ herrin at dirtside.com bill at herrin.us 
Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/> 