Whats' a good product for a high-density Wireless network setup?

Sat Jun 20 16:37:55 UTC 2015

I'd be grateful for any information on how to calculate for large scale
wifi deployment

On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 2:01 PM Ray Soucy <rps at maine.edu> wrote:

> Compared to the old model of just providing coverage, it's definitely
> higher density.  I think the point I was trying to make is that the old
> high density is the new normal, and what most on list would consider high
> density is more along the lines of stadium wireless.  I wouldn't really
> focus on the term too much, though.  It's just a distraction from the real
> question.
>
> The answer as always is "it depends".  Without detailed floor plans,
> survey information, and information on what kind of demand users will place
> on the network, there is really no way to tell you what solution will work
> well.
>
> If you need to service residential areas or hostel units you might be
> better off looking at some of the newer AP designs that have come out in
> the last year or so targeting that application, like the Cisco 702 or the
> Xirus 320.
>
> The general design of these units is that they're both a low-power AP and
> a small switch to provide residents with a few ports to plug in if they
> need to.  This allows you to have one cable drop to each room instead of
> having to run separate jacks for APs and wired connections.  The units are
> wall-mount and if you have a challenging RF environment this design can be
> really effective.
>
> I've never run Xirrus personally, but I think they were used for the last
> NANOG conference.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 6:41 AM, Sina Owolabi <notify.sina at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Thanks everybody. I've been corrected on density... I've been informed
>> that it's to be a minimum of 1000 users per building.
>> That's 8,000 users. (8 buildings, not counting walkways and courtyards,
>> admin, etc.)
>> Does this qualify as high-density?
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 5:33 AM Ray Soucy <rps at maine.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I could certainly be wrong, but it's news to me if UBNT started
>>> supporting DFS in the US.
>>>
>>> Your first screenshot is listing the UAP for 5240 which is channel 48,
>>> U-NII-1.  The second show 5825 which is the upper limit of U-NNI-3.  I
>>> don't see any U-NII-2 in what you posted.
>>>
>>> This forum post may be a bit out of date, but I haven't seen any
>>> announcement or information on the forums to indicate the situation has
>>> changed, and I'm pretty good at searching:
>>>
>>> https://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Wireless/DFS/m-p/700461#M54771
>>>
>>> From this thread it looks like the ability to configure DFS channels in
>>> the
>>> US was a UI bug and only showing for ZH anyway.  IIRC they actually got
>>> in
>>> a bit of trouble with the FCC over not restricting the use of these
>>> channels enough.
>>>
>>> Regardless of whether or not the FCC has cleared UBNT indoor products for
>>> U-NII-2 and U-NII-2-extended (and I haven't seen evidence of that yet),
>>> until you can configure APs to use those channels in the controller
>>> without
>>> violating FCC regulations I don't consider them usable.
>>>
>>> The UAP-AC doesn't seem to support DFS channels at all even without FCC
>>> restrictions, which kind of kills the point of AC, only 4 x 40 MHz or 2 x
>>> 80 MHz channels doesn't cut it when we're talking about density.
>>>
>>> Note we're talking about indoor wireless and there ARE some UBNT products
>>> for outdoor WISP use that do support DFS and have been cleared by the
>>> FCC,
>>> but we would only be looking at the UAP-PRO or UAP-AC in this case so
>>> maybe
>>> that's the point of confusion here.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 11:36 PM, Faisal Imtiaz <
>>> faisal at snappytelecom.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> > FCC Cert claims different.
>>> >
>>> > :)
>>> >
>>> > Faisal Imtiaz
>>> > Snappy Internet & Telecom
>>> > 7266 SW 48 Street
>>> > Miami, FL 33155
>>> > Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>>> >
>>> > Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: Support at Snappytelecom.net
>>> >
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > *From: *"Josh Luthman" <josh at imaginenetworksllc.com>
>>> > *To: *"Faisal Imtiaz" <faisal at snappytelecom.net>
>>> > *Cc: *"NANOG list" <nanog at nanog.org>, "Ray Soucy" <rps at maine.edu>
>>> > *Sent: *Friday, June 19, 2015 9:16:37 PM
>>> >
>>> > *Subject: *Re: Whats' a good product for a high-density Wireless
>>> network
>>>
>>> > setup?
>>> >
>>> > Uhm he's not wrong...
>>> >
>>> > Josh Luthman
>>> > Office: 937-552-2340
>>> > Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> > 1100 Wayne St
>>> > Suite 1337
>>> > Troy, OH 45373
>>> > On Jun 19, 2015 9:13 PM, "Faisal Imtiaz" <faisal at snappytelecom.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> >>>The thing you need to watch out for with Ubiquiti is that they
>>> don't
>>> >> support DFS, so the entire U-NII-2 channel space is off limits for 5
>>> GHz.
>>> >>
>>> >> Huh ????
>>> >>
>>> >> Please verify your facts before making blanket statements which are
>>> not
>>> >> accurate ...
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> Faisal Imtiaz
>>> >> Snappy Internet & Telecom
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- Original Message -----
>>> >> > From: "Ray Soucy" <rps at maine.edu>
>>> >> > To: "Sina Owolabi" <notify.sina at gmail.com>
>>> >> > Cc: "nanog at nanog.org list" <nanog at nanog.org>
>>> >> > Sent: Friday, June 19, 2015 7:07:01 PM
>>> >> > Subject: Re: Whats' a good product for a high-density Wireless
>>> network
>>> >> setup?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I know you don't want to hear this answer because of cost but I've
>>> had
>>> >> good
>>> >> > luck with Cisco for very high density (about 1,000 clients in a
>>> packed
>>> >> > auditorium actively using the network as they follow along with the
>>> >> > presenter).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The thing you need to watch out for with Ubiquiti is that they don't
>>> >> > support DFS, so the entire U-NII-2 channel space is off limits for 5
>>> >> GHz.
>>> >> > That's pretty significant because you're limited to 9 x 20 MHz
>>> channels
>>> >> or
>>> >> > 4 x 40 MHz channels.  Keeping the power level down and creating
>>> small
>>> >> cells
>>> >> > is essential for high density, so with less channels your hands are
>>> >> really
>>> >> > tied in that case.  Also, avoid the Zero Handoff marketing nonsense
>>> they
>>> >> > advertise; I'm sure it can work great for a low client residential
>>> area
>>> >> but
>>> >> > it requires all APs to share a single channel and depends upon
>>> >> coordinating
>>> >> > only one active transmitter at a time, so it simply won't scale.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I don't have experience with other vendors at large scale or high
>>> >> density.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I don't think what you're talking about is really high density
>>> anymore
>>> >> > though.  That's just normal coverage.  Wireless is a lot more
>>> >> complicated
>>> >> > than selecting a vendor, though.  If you know what you're doing even
>>> >> > Ubiquiti could work decently, but if you don't even a Cisco solution
>>> >> won't
>>> >> > save you.  You really need to be on top of surveying correctly and
>>> >> having
>>> >> > appropriate AP placement and channel distribution.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 1:57 AM, Sina Owolabi <
>>> notify.sina at gmail.com>
>>> >> wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> > > Hi
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > We are profiling equipment and design for an expected high user
>>> >> density
>>> >> > > network of multiple, close nit, residential/hostel units. Its
>>> going
>>> >> to be
>>> >> > > 8-10 buildings with possibly a over 1000 users at any given time.
>>> >> > > We are looking at Ruckus and Ubiquiti as options to get over the
>>> high
>>> >> > > number of devices we are definitely going to encounter.
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > How did you do it, and what would you advise for product and
>>> layout?
>>> >> > >
>>> >> > > Thanks in advance!
>>> >> > >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > --
>>> >> > Ray Patrick Soucy
>>> >> > Network Engineer
>>> >> > University of Maine System
>>> >> >
>>> >> > T: 207-561-3526
>>> >> > F: 207-561-3531
>>> >> >
>>> >> > MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network
>>> >> > www.maineren.net
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ray Patrick Soucy
>>> Network Engineer
>>> University of Maine System
>>>
>>> T: 207-561-3526
>>> F: 207-561-3531
>>>
>>> MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network
>>> www.maineren.net
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Ray Patrick Soucy
> Network Engineer
> University of Maine System
>
> T: 207-561-3526
> F: 207-561-3531
>
> MaineREN, Maine's Research and Education Network
> www.maineren.net
>